Imma say it again; Beware the Cloak of Black Male &White Female Privilege!


Today I want to play a game called “Most Realistic Outcome”.  It’s really quite simple and only requires the use of your imagination… Are you all ready? Okay.

Imagine there was a white man. Most likely American, and in his mid to late thirties. Now imagine this white man grew up with all the privileges that came with being white and male. But there was a problem. You see this white man, who grew up with his white parents, applied to a historically black college and didn’t get in. This made the white man angry. He felt entitled to receive what he believed was rightfully his. You see, this white man, let’s call him “Richard” decided that he didn’t like that. And so Richard decided to sue the school for “discrimination” based on the fact that he was white.

That didn’t work out too well for Richard. He lost his lawsuit and was forced to actually pay damages to the school in question. This bothers Richard further. Later, Richard decides suddenly that he’s been having an identity crisis. Richard suddenly, and after living his life as a privileged white male, decides that he wants to live life as a black man as he feels he identifies with black people more. Richard spends money on tanning cream and spray tans. He then finds an afro wig and decides to wear it around town. Richard decides create an elaborate story about his father really being black and tells people that his mother’s adopted black children are his with a black woman. Richard then commits several crimes and lies about his ethnicity on any application he can get his hands on.

Richard applies to the black college again, this time as a Black man.  He is accepted to the college. Richard receives a scholarship; one that actually belongs to *real* black men. He is then hired by the NAACP as a president and took a *real* black man’s position. He is also hired to work in the Oversight division in the Spokane police department. But that’s not all. Richard is hired as a teacher of Africana Studies at Eastern Washington University, He is accused of being nasty to black male students and favoring black female students.  He decides to tell his black students about their history because he feels he knows about it just as much.

At some point, Richard plagiarizes several African American paintings from the 1800’s. He also accuses people of committing hate crimes against him when it is actually untrue.  Suddenly Rach… ahem I mean Richard is outed by his white parents. For Richard isn’t a black man at all, he is a white man living the life of a charlatan. Richard has lied and carried on and has been rewarded for his deception. The media is in a frenzy now. Black people have the opportunity to speak on this privileged white man stealing resources from poor black men who were deserving of these scholarships and positions.

In this scenario what would be the most realistic outcome.

Would the media, black people, and the NAACP

  1. A) Immediately fire Richard and speak out against the privileges of White men against the poor black men who were cheated.
  2. B) Call for an investigation and begin a lawsuit on the resources that went to Richard instead of other black men because of his lies.
  3. C) Launch a national discussion about the evil white man and their entitlement issues.
  4. D) Sympathize with the borderline psychotic white man’s need to “feel good” about himself at the expense of the black men who were cheated and locked out of positions that were long fought for.
  5. E) Come out in defense of said white man and defend his need to “identify” with blacks even when it was at the expense of black men and their best interests.

….. If you answered A, B, And C. You get full points.  If you answered D or E. Well I’m sorry you’re probably a delusional fool.

Now, imagine this scenario involved a woman named “Rachel” instead of a man named Richard. Imagine if this happened to a woman who grew up with blond hair and blue eyes and all the privileges that came along with being a white woman.  What do you think the outcome is?

…. If you answered A,B, C. Well then you probably live in an alternate universe where right and wrong are not subjective to whether there is a penis attached and if you answered D or E then I applaud your intelligence.

You see, in this timeline, in this universe, on this planet we call earth there’s a thing called privilege. You see not only do white men have privilege because they are men and because they are white, White women have privilege because they are white (even though they are women) and black men have privilege because they are males (even though they are black). And black women, well… you know how that plays out.

I’ve told you all before about the mass hypocrisy and privilege concerning black men and white women. I’ve told you all before about the near rabid focus on the privileges of white men while ignoring the privileges of two groups who do nothing at all to stop their own abusive behavior towards black women.

While everyone was so focused on white men. Black men and white women where stripping black women of everything that they could possibly get their hands on right down to African American women’s identities.  You see for those who refused to see the nuances of privilege, especially the foolish black women who wouldn’t heed warnings from the numbers of black women who already spoke about these issues for the past *decade* are now shocked and awed at the reactions of deadbeat bm willing to throw down their capes to save a white woman from her own foolishness. These black women are now gnashing their teeth and writhing in pain that they’ve been betrayed *yet again* by black men who cosigned Rachel Dolezal. They still understand how privilege works.  On the other hand those black women who are waiting for the world to come out and condemn this lying white lady and her delusions are in for a surprise are now *shocked* that white female privilege has actually done the opposite.

So for the simpletons that just don’t get it, imma’ say again exactly what the cloak of black male and white female privilege means in terms of black women.

  1. BM/WF privilege means that while white women may not have BOTH privileges they still have enough privilege that it is OPEN SEASON on the black women who have the misfortune of coming in contact with delusiods like Rachel Dolezal.
  2. BM/WF privilege means that while the rest of the world would have made sure to call for the head of any WM and his offspring had they perpetrated such an offense against a black MAN, most of those same black man who would readily grab pitchforks and matches are now ready to forgive and forget the same behavior from their counterparts. (I’ve said before that BM and White women are different sides of the SAME coin in terms of privilege and wielding that privilege against black women as a weapon.)
  3. In terms of white women this cloak of privilege means that instead of the world holding this bird brain accountable, her cloak of privilege lets her sins be cast invisible so that she’s come off as a “confused” tortured soul instead of the predator she actually is. It is a very adequate shield of armor. (Remember white woman’s tears ya’ll.)
  4. In terms of black men this cloak of privilege means that black men get to set the standard of what qualifies as racism. They are given, by the world, the privilege of deciding who and what gets held accountable. Any black woman who knows what’s up can see the pattern in which deadbeat black men allow any old white woman to do whatever they want while wailing about racial solidarity and asking black women to cape for grown men.

*For more on this topic please see Halima’s post called “Who’s Zooming Who”

  1. In terms of black women this cloak of privilege (for those who are massively in denial) means that black women take their cues from said black men above in the hopes that they will gain said privileges of black men. (I have written numerous posts on why this won’t happen). It also means that black women will end up taking their cues from said black men and their one sided privilege. ( See the number of black women following the NAACP and trying to sympathize with this barracuda)
  2. IN terms of privilege this means that two groups who peddle themselves as being “victimized” by white men can turn around and stick it two black women and even blame black women for their own behavior. This includes accusations of being “jealous”/ “bitter” about white women’s *obvious* superiority to black women along with forcing black women to tow the party line for the BM agenda of racial “equality”.

I suppose there were a number of black women waiting for black people to condemn this white woman’s behavior. I suppose they thought that after muling for black men and the black (male) cause they would finally be worthy of defense.  Instead what black women were shown was that they *still* weren’t worth outrage.

I’m going to say again that black women need to pull their collective head out of their ass. It appears that some of ya’ll believe this is a game. Some of you believe that constant erasure of boundaries is going to be something that will “benefit” everyone.


Erasure of boundaries without a release of privilege only works for those who already started out with privilege.

Example: Cooking is largely seen as a domesticated (see: female) career. And yet when men choose this profession they are given privileges that women are never afforded. Meanwhile women who break into traditionally male fields are not given the same level of respect.

A number of bwe writers have spoken on the importance of maintaining boundaries in regards to race.  *See Khadija’s post on those who pretend not to know what “black” means. These black woman knew the consequences of allowing others to dictate who can and can’t identify as black and those pretending that we have some sort of shared experience and collective, when these same groups have a very obvious agenda.

Now these same people who wanted to pretend like this was High School Musical are now shocked when people are invoking those same privileges that never went away in the first place. And what’s worse the new redefinition of what it means to be black harms *actual* black women.

You see for those who have an agenda not having boundaries on who is black (and yes even who is a woman) only benefits those who have nothing to lose. You can believe that the main reason why black men haven’t spoken out in mass (and why delusional black women have supported Rachel Dolezal) is because they don’t believe they are going lose out. Hell, as some people pointed out this woman’s “black” persona is exactly what deadbeat bm hold as the standard of what black womanhood should look like.

I’m going to warn black women yet again to watch out for opportunistic people who are using “inclusiveness” as a way to gain access to African American women’s hard earned rights.  Beware of the cloak of privilege. What does this mean? Avoid situations in which people ask you to give up established boundaries in the name of “fairness”. Remove yourselves from people who are clearly only there to take what they can get before they ditch. Stay away from people who want you to cape for your own erasure.

And for the love of God, Stay neutral. I will say again that aligning yourself with groups that have the power to wield their privilege over black women will do nothing but damage black women further.  For the black women who invested in the NAACP only to be betrayed by their support of Rachel Dolezal, learn your lesson from this.  Watch out for deadbeat black men and white women waiting in the wings to use their privilege as a weapon. Now more than ever I would warn that these groups have the power to do the most damage to black women.

Never forget the power of boundaries. And any time someone asks you to give up something so they can be included to your demise, ask yourself this:  If the tables were turned, if I were a black women who suddenly decided to “identify” as a white woman would I be handed the privileges of a white woman.

I think we all know the answer to this and questions like it.

Until Next time…


357 thoughts on “Imma say it again; Beware the Cloak of Black Male &White Female Privilege!

    • You may not consider Biracial women Black, but the vast majority of Blacks consider Biracial women IDEAL black women. She knew exactly what she was doing. If Biracial women weren’t held up as the ideal, this couldn’t have happened, because there would have been no benefits to obtain from emulating one.

      A LOT of people are showing their true colors with this one. I’m just thankful that the discourse allows one to see who is a true ally and who is not. Identify ’em, tag ’em, and keep it moving.

    • I work at an HBCU and my Ph.D. co-worker claimed not to have an issue with Rachel. Really?
      My co-worker is in her early 60s and should know better. I found out later that she was recently elected as VP for our local NAACP; therefore, she was not going to knock herself. The President is a male and they were supposed to go and speak at an event (maybe about this Rachel woman) but, he calls her up at the very last minute and claims he will be late for the interview. What a cop-out. It was too late for her to back out. One of our bm co-worker is her former bf. When cuts came she saved his job. When he had a heart attack scare guess who was there to help him (among other women). You think he was thankful? He chases any woman in a skirt.
      I made the mistake of telling her I was once married to a non-black man. Now if I say something that is not stereotypically black she will say something along the line, “of course you would chose that.”
      It is so sad that many black women simply do not understand it is NOT a compliment that someone with Rachel’s mental illness is pretending to be one of us. Rachel does not make bw look good. What police officer is going to help a bw if he thinks she is going to behave like Rachel? All Rachel and others have to do is stop tanning/ take off the wigs and bam she is 100% white again.

  1. I agree with Gina, on this point:

    “A LOT of people are showing their true colors with this one. I’m just thankful that the discourse allows one to see who is a true ally and who is not. Identify ’em, tag ’em, and keep it moving.”

    I must say this situation has evoked a “mild” curiosity from me. Not much. I’m actually not surprised by it at all. I actually have more interest in the responses of others TO this situation more than I have in the situation itself.

    This woman CLEARLY has “issues”. I really haven’t put much effort into trying to “understand” her. But, I have wondered whether this is more a case of a lower-ranked white woman trying to obtain the privileges of a higher-ranked “black” woman or a case of some “twisted” form of Munchhausen by proxy (as if the syndrome wasn’t “twisted” enough in itself).

    I really don’t have the time or energy to spend trying to sort this out. I actually am a bit (not so) surprised and disappointed that this case is getting the coverage it is. Having all of these different news discussions and roundtables seems to propose there is a certain degree of “legitimacy” in this woman’s actions. I don’t know if I am expressing my feelings properly.

    Honestly, I’ve come to accept that AAs like me are “dying out”. I am an AA who identifies with Harriet Tubman. The “Raven Symone” AAs don’t want to do that. Rosa Parks is as “black” as THEY want to identify. I also accept that AAs have no “ethnic common sense”. It was never developed. So, what we see from our group is the result of lacking it. This type of thing would HARDLY be accepted by other groups like Pakistanis, Chinese, Indians, Europeans, etc., because these groups value their ethnic identity and history. And, they take the protection of their identity/ancestry SERIOUSLY. I was actually looking at commentary on this case at a European news website, and a woman (allegedly) from France said Rachel looks “black” anyway. So, some Europeans don’t seem to have much investment in “claiming” this white woman. Lmao

    Anyway, this woman DOES represent what today’s BM want to classify as a “black” woman, in the “BLACKEST” form, because the “fat” nose, “frizzy” hair is not what TODAY’S “negro” aspires to see in his women or female children. It is, what it is. I just recognize that we are very DISTINCT GROUPS.

    I think I’ve come to accept the trajectory AAs are on. I’m just “watching the movie”. I realize my children may not have much of an “ethnic group” to identify with. I am planning to have them be members of the educated class with money and connections to people CREATING a positive and developed future for the world. Reality is that the people doing that are going to be from a variety of “races” and ethnic backgrounds. I’m just sad that AAs as a “meaningful group” will disintegrate.

    In the meantime, I withhold my support from any and all things/parties that work to marginalize/erase ME. This goes for the “Rachels”, Africans, “black” Hispanics, biracials, international blacks/biracials, who are constantly utilized to represent AAs. AAs are under attack, exploitation, and manipulation from ALL of these groups. SORRY. But, just because your skin is “brown” or your hair is “nappy” DOES NOT MEAN you AUTOMATICALLY get to represent ME.

    It’s just too much. It’s overwhelming. And, the majority of AAs are too obtuse to see or do anything about it. But, you can’t get anything out of something that doesn’t exist/isn’t there. For AAs to stop this and change their course, they would actually have to have a SUBSTANTIVE ethnic pride, and they’ve never truly had that. Their “pride” was always about inclusion into others rather than existence as themselves. It’s a sad story of a GREAT PEOPLE who didn’t love themselves enough secure their future and existence.

    • I was wondering when someone was going to mention or notice that we are now on the third generation of Africans and other foreign blacks that have come here and have taken/are taking scholarships meant for AAs. This is nothing new. But like someone said earlier this week, a white woman’s presence can be very triggering for black women. I bet no one noticed how the census changed from 2000 to 2010 in regards to how AAs are classified either (no one except foreign-born or foreign-descended blacks).

      • I had a friend, YEARS ago, who talked about how foreign origin blacks were taking scholarships/benefits meant for AAs. It was the firs time the idea was ever presented to me. I never thought of it before. I thought, “Hmmm…she has a good/interesting point.” Now, I SEE the ramifications of all of this. However, this same friend felt AAs needed to form alliances with Hispanics rather than being “jealous”. I couldn’t get with her on that, because I didn’t feel the “jealousy” issue was really jealousy at all. But, this girl was half-AA by way of both of her parents being half-AA. But, she always told me she “didn’t feel like it”. I understood what she was saying. And, growing up in a wealthy white environment, she dealt with a lot of prejudice. Although I am a chocolate girl with nappy hair, she and I could relate quite a lot.

        As far as Black classification goes, I noticed the “non-Hispanic origin” selection. I don’t know if you’re referring to anything else. I’m very curious about this. Nothing surprises me, anymore.

        • In the 2000 census, there was a designation for foreign-descended blacks other than African-American. I specifically recall that there were two lines (one for each parent) for any black designation other than African-American. If you didn’t choose African American, you could put Haitian or Nigerian or Jamaican or Trinidadian, for example, without falling under the AA designation. In 2010, they started lumping all people with black skin together by saying something like “African-American, or from one of the black racial groups of Africa”. What this did, in effect, was to broaden the category of African-Americans to include Africans, Jamaicans, etc. such that any resources that had been previously set aside for AAs (housing, jobs, and particularly scholarships) became available to a wider group of people. Any programs that were set up to redress the wrongs of slavery now are available to essentially anyone with black skin, regardless of whether they were descendants of slaves or not. I even saw where (mostly white) people were trying to say that Charlize Theron should be considered an AA.

          So I said all that to say that the erasure-of-black-women-and-dilution-of-AAs process has been in effect for decades now and I’m surprised that it takes the present of Rachel D. for AAs and particularly black women to get upset about this now. I believe this is due to the fact that AAs have always been more inclusive toward other racial and ethnic groups than they have toward AAs.

        • Godlive,

          Thanks. I think I’ve seen that.

          I remember reading/hearing something where a white academic was discussing affirmative action programming in relation to AAs. They were saying if the goal is to have more black students, then offering slots to foreign blacks is appropriate. But, if the goal is to redress the wrongs of slavery, then you would want admissions to be partial to AAs. I think the article was linked/referenced by one of the BWE sites. Honestly, I personally want to see a focus on provision for AAs, because there are more social/ cultural barriers to their preparation for success, whereas many other foreign blacks don’t have the same socialization, anti intellectual challenges.

        • ” I believe this is due to the fact that AAs have always been more inclusive toward other racial and ethnic groups than they have toward AAs.”

          Yes. AAs LOVE “mixed”, honey. It is what it is.

    • “some Europeans don’t seem to have much investment in “claiming” this white woman. ”

      IMO, because Rachel is a crazy bitch and no one wants to be associated with such a person.

      • Yes, foreign born blacks are getting scholarships from sources such as Thurgood Marshall.
        At my school Jamaican and African born students are benefitting from this scholarship.

        The thing is many AA students are not as prepared as foreign born black people. This is what happens when America has practiced a long history of inequality as far as education was concerned. Many foreign blacks come from a middle class background and they understand the value of an education. Unlike America other countries do not have a safety net for their underprivileged citizens.

        AA women must get in where they can. Make sure that environment is a thriving one.

  2. It is quite unfortunately that it has taken so man American BW to recognize the desalination of soldiering for non-essential and non-supportive BM and WW. I often times feel I live in an alternative universe because what this chic is getting away with is unbelievable! I agree 100% with Formavitae’s statement:

    “In the meantime, I withhold my support from any and all things/parties that work to marginalize/erase ME. This goes for the “Rachels”, Africans, “black” Hispanics, biracials, international blacks/biracials, who are constantly utilized to represent AAs. AAs are under attack, exploitation, and manipulation from ALL of these groups. SORRY. But, just because your skin is “brown” or your hair is “nappy” DOES NOT MEAN you AUTOMATICALLY get to represent ME.”

    I stopped supporting such foolery almost a decade ago. This was before I affiliated with the BWE movement. I knew back then something was amiss, particularly when I was a small business owner and attending business events. WW attempted to STEAL my contracts by STEALING my employees on the contract job. So, I understand their privileged mindset, especially when it comes to BW. If the Rachel D. episode doesn’t wake us up from our comas nothing will.

  3. I have a sincere question for those who don’t acknowledge biracial children as black: Where does that leave all the black women who (for whatever reason) are being encouraged to expand their dating pool to include non-black men if they want to marry and have children within a marriage? If that is done, on any double digit percentage scale, what then happens to “Blacks” especially when many of the women doing so are supporters of black women’s empowerment?

    • Boo yah and great question. I’m actually making a very controversial post about this right now. I’m still editing it but it asks and brings up some very uncomfortable realities and questions we as BW need to face in regards to “banishing” light/mixed women from the black female collective.

        • COmplately agree with this. Thus why I cannot understand why BW as a whole keep fighting for Blackness. This whole “erasing us” and authentic BW stuff is crazy IMo since the only people erasing you are the very men who do not want to pro create with you and create more “authentic BW”.

          Light/mixed and bi rcaial women to be FRANK, are the only source for BW’s survival at this point in terms of bloodline and legacy as women. In the next few decades authetntic BW will be a thing of the past. That is because BM as a collective (the actual ones who could build strong stable communities and Black children) have abandoned BW en masse to create those very non authetntic BW and mixed women we are talking about all the time erasing us. This leaves many BW unmarried and unable to create and form stable black families. This means BW have two choices – keep waiting and hoping BM will come to love your authentic selves or understand you will also have to contribute to your own ERASURE if you want some kind of legacy. That means pro creating, marrying with NOn BM who will give you those very mixed and light women we keep claiming are erasing us.

          The Black community and black family is a WRAP – expecpt for those who wish to live amongst the dysfunctional and underclass who won’t and can’t get it together.

          Any intelligent BW would be smart to note that her only source of survival at this point is to pro create with non BM to keep whatever black lineage she has.

          Many BW will not do this and will die childless because they kept waiting on the Black man to turn around and that aint gonn ahappen.

          The only men checking for authentic BW these days are NON BLACK MEN. They however, cannot give you the “authentic” BW so many BW are always proclaiming.

          Denouncing light mixed women at this point is counterproductive because these are the very women you have left to create since BM in large are not marrying and do not want to make healthy families with authetnic BW!

          The problem is a nutshell is the anger is a result of not leveling the playing field so that non Mixed BW could also enjoy the benefits of being loved and being worthy as they are in thier own veautiful skin. To me its not about “banishing” light/mixed women from Black female collective. Its about leveling the playing field and no longer simply giving them privledge to be representatives of the WHOLE of Black womanhood.

          That is what needs to be done.

          It becomes a slippery slope once you start trying to nitpick “blackness” since there are a lot of BLACK WOMEN who have two Black parents but who can pass for bi racial and bi racial women who have one White or Non Black parent who look just as Black as the next BW.

          Barack Obama is not Black technically. But he damn sure looks like a whole host of other Blacks with two Black parents.

          Like I said the problem IS and HAS BEEN the lack of support and celebration of authentic BW. That can be fixed by leveling the playing field and no longer allowing light and mixed women to be the *sole* reps of Black womanhood.

          If BW claim they have divested from BM and Black dysfunction, then light/mixed women are no longer an issue since in the global arena, they get no more special privledges in the dating arena than non mixed BW. But whether yall like it or not, they are still a representation of Black womanhood in a sense so you cannot completely kick them out.

          I’m not letting ANYOEN kick me out of my black bucket. Instead lets level the playing field by DEMANDING equal representation and finally saying light/mixed women are NOT MORE beautiful than non mixed BW. We as BW come beautiful from the darkest to the lightest and its time we demand that.

          But no Im not going for this divisive mess of light/mixed women “erasing” BW. Light mixed women have been apart of the AA collective since day one. CONTRIBUTING in many ways. you cannot just kick them to the curb now that the chickens have come to roost.

        • @ Neecy
          ” But whether yall like it or not, they are still a representation of Black womanhood in a sense so you cannot completely kick them out.”

          Correct on all points. Biracials exist and it will do black women no good to yield the field to white women as has been done in so many areas concerning black women. These are your children ladies. Embrace them and teach them your values.

    • Their children are biracial just as the children of the BM/WW pairing. Should I have biracial children they will be biracial- not black. It is an insult to me as a black woman with two black parents to call my half black children black.

      Honestly, I do not feel that it is Black women’s responsibility to be concerned with what happens to black people as a whole. In a patriarchal society- which is what most of the world represents- it is the man’s responsibility to lead and maintain his community. Black men have abdicated that responsibility. Therefore, I do not see what happens to black people as a whole to be mine or anyone other black woman’s problem to address.

      • Light/mixed and biracial women to be FRANK, are the only source for BW’s survival at this point in terms of bloodline and legacy.

        A little dramatic there neecY! Lol There’s a billion people in Africa , and the population will be INCREASING. Dark skin mono racial black women are not going anywhere and will always exist. There are hundreds of millions of U.S. I think you mean AA women. I don’t think the AA population will be as big in the next 50 years. Foreign blacks will just replace AA people.

    • I find this question odd to be honest. Especially considering that this question is almost ALWAYS exclusively presented to ONLY black women when they set their boundaries. But I’ll explain it as I see it and respond to your question with another question. Why is it that when WM and AW date (which they do in *very* large numbers in proportion to their population in the US) and eventually have children, those children are not allowed to speak for collective full Asian children *and* they are not forced to deny the fact that they are white also. Why is it that black MEN can date and have sex with whomever they want and still they are allowed to acknowledge that they can and should put the interests of full blacks first? Why is it that when groups like Asians/ Hispanics have bi-racial groups of people they are allowed to acknowledge that yes they may be part Asian/Hispanic but they do not speak for the COLLECTIVE of FULL ASIANS/HISPANICS because that is NOT THEIR EXPERIENCE. Why is it that when a person is Mixed with Something Else/ BLACK the racist groups are allowed to DEPOSIT these bi-racial people into the “black” category and not allow them all of the rights/ privileges that go with identifying with another group?

      I ask this because I notice this trend a lot and ONLY with people who are biracial that have BLACK in them. The other group in question always forces said bi-racial people to PRETEND as if they are “just” black. This is not fair to blacks, who have been living their skin without *any of the privileges of being able to claim being biracial even a little. *And yall know that they exist. Further I’ve also noticed that ONLY full AMERICAN BLACK WOMEN are asked to move over and (because of Bi-racials experience with racist whites) give them the FLOOR. That is itself is white privilege. NOT having to live the full experience of full black women day in and day out. But still when the time comes being allowed because they have a drop of white) being able to TALK OVER BLACK WOMEN And define FULL BLACK WOMEN.
      Remember just because someone isn’t fully WHITE OR A MAN DOESN”T mean that they don’t have ANY privilege. White women have privilege over black women because they are WHITE. BLACK MEN have privilege over black men because they are MEN and bi-racials get to speak over (MOSTLY BLACK WOMEN) and define the ENTIRE collective because they have even SOME white and are mostly seen as the Ideal by deadbeat black men and racist whites. Who don’t want to give up THEIR privileges.
      Even though I encourage black women to date interracially I still advise black women to put the needs of their group FIRST. This *apparently* doesn’t seem to be an issues for WM, BM, AW or any other group of people who dates interracially. I only ever here this brought up concerning black women. (since it’s a foreign concept for black women take care of self first) Further black women would be doing their future children a LARGE injustice by deny them the privileges that go along with identifying with their white/whatever side. Not to mention if I were to have bi-racial children I would tell them that they are exactly that bi-racial.
      It seems to me that your question is somewhat based on the racist perspective black women have been programmed with. Only because this belief only stays as far as full black women are. For other groups there is no issues. They acknowledge bi-racials but they do NOT allow them to SPEAK For the collective of FULL raced people. TO do so makes no sense simply because that is not their experience.
      *If Khadija is reading these comments or any other BWE writers are reading these comments who have talked about this in the past I ask that you give your perspective as this question is always being directed at black women.

      • That is because since day one Bi racials had no choice but to claim BLACK. And so for the remaining decades following they stayed the course and continued to call themselves Black. NOT TO MENTION many bi racials often look more Black and even if they wanted to escape thier blackness they couldn’t because the global arena sees a Black person and lables them as such – HENCE BARACK OBAMA. I don’t see nyone making sure to decipher him as anything other than BLACK. That is because he looks like a typical light skinned Black person. He could be my father EASY.

        If Blacks were so bothered by this, then this should have been nipped in the bud CENTURIES AGO! Instead what BW and Black people did was give those bi racials who DARED caimed anything but thier back heritage a hard time for doing so. Saying they were running away from thier blackness and making them feel like crap for doing it.

        Its a lot easier for other races to move the mixed Black people into the Black bucket because often times half Black persons do not look completely like thier other non Black half. Most often times they look more Black and will identify as such.

        In fact, it still happens today. Any bi racial claiming all of thier mixed heritage gets burned at the stake by BLACK FOLKS claiming they are trying to deny thier Blackness in favor of thier “white” or non Black privedge.

        At this point my question is WHAT IS IT?

        Do we want them apart of the collective or not?

        Because we need to recognize and acknowedge they have for the most part contributed to the black collective in positive ways as well.

        That’s fine. If BW want to set boundaries and now kick light and mixed women out of the “Black bucket” OK do that. But eventually you will die out because BM for the most part have no interest in keeping the authetntic black race going.

        What are you going to do when you start creating tose very mixed and bi racials you claim are erasing you? Are you going to hold resentment toward them nd claim”they are responsible for erasing real BW”. Are you going to be able to tell your bi racial daughters they are beeautiful without feeling the STING of resentment? Ginas question is a real one and a good one especially for those BW looking to cross color lines and pro create and create mixed families with other races of men.

        I’m not saying BW should not set boundaries. But there is a way to do it without cutting off your nose to spite your face.

        The problem is you have plenty of bi racials who LOOK BLACK and have the same BLACK EXPERIENCE as a dark skinned kinky haired woman. That is why its much easier for them to fall into the “Black bucket” a lot of times because they are deemed and treated AS SUCH.

        Lastly, ask yourself how you plan on handling your future bi racial offspring who WILL be contributing to your erasure as a BW.

        BW have not divested. I dont care how much we say we have. The fact we still argue and fuss over women who are only given privledge by BLACK MEN (who we claim to be over) says we are still holding onto a wing and a prayer and not being smart.

        In the global arena light/mixed and non mixed BW are on the same playing evel in term sof dating. In fact, most NOn BM prefer more authetnic looking BW. So why are we still compaining and arguing over light mixed women if we have truly divested from Black men and black colorism dysfunction.???

        • I’ve had more time to digest this and here are my thoughts:

          1- Can we have a discussion without questioning motives or presenting the comment in the light as though I’m gas lighting or being disingenous? I don’t want to waste posts explaining that my question is sincere.
          2- I also want to be able to discuss this issue without being asked/indicated why I’m not asking this of other groups of people or only asking this of black women. Considering the context, this conversation is appropriate.

          These are my thoughts:

          1- The elevation of biracial children is something mostly sought by white mothers who want their children to not have to be “regular black”
          2- There are SOME black women who also participate in this because they want their children to have a privilege they didn’t have. But for the most part, their children don’t get those privileges, or to the same extent.
          3- A LOT of privilege depends on looks/phenotype and perceived attractiveness. There’s no denying this.
          4- Mostly all of this privilege comes from being elevated in the black community because non black communities do not consider biracial (their ethnicity mixed with black) to be a part of their group. Thus the privileges those children have, outside of the black community, are privileges of money/class or other things they have as a result of that union, but not one of race.

          Having said all of that.

          We acknowledge the reality that a growing number of black women will end up needing to mate outside of the black community if they want to mate at all, which will mean a growing number of biracial black children with black mothers.

          Something we have not really dealt with in large numbers at this point. WE HAVE NOT. Data. Facts, Most biracial children have non black mothers. So this hasn’t become a cultural issue YET.

          As I see it, the advocacy is that black women promote the rights of fully black women, but this WILL be at the expense of HER offspring. Again, HER children will NOT have the same privilege of those with white mothers, period (and a lot of black women thinking they can procreate their children into said privilege will be sorely disappointed). And that, to me, makes no sense. I’m not saying that BW should elevate biracial women to their detriment, but I don’t think you’ll find many who will support the cause of mono-racial black women to the exclusion of her very offspring.

        • Gina,
          I no way do I believe you are a troll. As khadija said you have been on this blog for a while now and I know your motives are fine.
          But I asked this question because I’m noticing a pattern that even black women don’t notice when this topic comes up and I’m wondering if this ever occurs to black women when speaking of other groups or is this *specific* to black women. But I don’t think you’re a troll/question your motives and I appreciate your input.

        • Gina,

          Looking at your points, I wanted to say this:

          1. I knew a half black/half white lady earning her PhD in political science. She told me about another mixed girl who did a research paper on the movement to classify half black children as “biracial” rather than “AA”. She found that it was the white mothers pushing for this rather than the kids.

          2. Phenotype DOES make a huge difference. There was a half white girl who said she knew her black father would never like her, because she didn’t have the right look. DEEP.

          3. Yes, mixed people are usually elevated at the expense of blacks. That’s what some of us are trying to stop. It doesn’t have to be an elected blacks/down biracials or vice vers situations. Biracials can learn to reciprocate and help build for AAs, in exchange for the support they often (seek) to receive.

          These are challenging issues, which will never be fully resolved. People just have to learn how to find their “happy medium” and find some peace.

        • I’d like to say that children bw choose will always be black because kids share their mothers social condition. This is why there is an old adage which says bw + wm produces black and white while bm + ww/other races produces nothing. This is the main reason kids bm (and other races who identify with them) have *no choice* but to assert themselves in circles where bw and children are. Technically these kids have nowhere to go, especially when it comes to the building up of self esteem through group pride.

          Men are supposed to secure resources (land etc) for their offspring. Obviously, bp are in a conundrum in regards to this and instead of working on that conundrum, many bm have decided to forego all rules of life in order to feel as if they are a part of something (mans world) in which they are not. Which brings me to privilege. Privilege rarely protests from a victimization stance. Privilege simply acts (rarely protests). I do not agree there is bm privilege. Just being able to abuse someone or something isn’t privilege–it’s just abuse. Calling whats going on in the bc a privilege is probably at least a little dangerous.

          Also, because of the dynamics of lots of bm insisting on pushing their offspring on black women, there will always be issues with divesting because rightful pushback from bw will always be there for as long as they exist as a group. This is a JUST reaction on the part of bw. Right now the only mass comeback from bm is continued non defense and telling bw they aren’t wanted by these guys etc (never mentionning that many bw do not want the type of man who fathered these kids in the first place- lots of those guys were rejected first by bw for the very traits many of them boldly display which are not attractive nor manly). Not securing resources, not defending women and children, siding with in many cases racists against bw and children are not traits any sane woman is looking for in a man. And don’t forget, they aren’t taking care of these prized biracials in any greater of numbers either. So, it’s a sad state of affairs.

        • BINGO!!!!!! When the topic of president Obama came up in high school I remember VERY VIVIDLY when I yelled out ‘He’s biracial!!’, what did my white teacher respond back with? ‘ Oh stop it! He’s a n-word!’ You are right, a disproportionate amount of biracial people I have met have to tell me there biracial or I wouldn’t know it. Many of them do in fact look mono-racially black. It would never have crossed my mind that President Obama had a white parent…

        • This is a very interesting discussion and one that I have pondered as well. I think physical appearance has a lot to do with things. For instance, the actress Lauren London has a white father and a black mother, London tends to play mainly black characters. Jennifer Beals has a white mother and had a black father, she plays mainly biracial characters, and I have seen her play a white character.

          When I was in high school, I had a friend who was half Japanese and half white. She would said just that, Japanese and white; but she was very much into Japanese culture, she had a Japanese first name because her mother insisted, she also spoke Japanese, now this was in the 1970’s, NYC. On the other hand, I had a college roommate with the same ethnic background, but she grew up in suburban New Jersey in the 1970’s, she was NOT into Japanese culture,she had an American first name, she did not speak Japanese and identified mainly with white culture, that was because her mother wanted to be seen as white, American, even though white people were horrible prejudiced to her because they didn’t consider her white.

          I also think this colorism is rooted in sexism, what people see as feminine. For instance, in Bollywood films, I’ve noticed the women have lighter complexions than the men, same thing in the Telanovellas; Hollywood tends to cast Asian women who look more Caucasian, to play Asians. There is a discrepancy in regards to sex, I mean brown skinned actors are seen as sexy and attractive, but no so much with actresses; which was why Viola Davis’ casting in How to Get Away With Murder was so important.

        • “As I see it, the advocacy is that black women promote the rights of fully black women, but this WILL be at the expense of HER offspring. Again, HER children will NOT have the same privilege of those with white mothers, period (and a lot of black women thinking they can procreate their children into said privilege will be sorely disappointed). And that, to me, makes no sense.”

          I do not agree with this point. At least in the U.S. the biracial children of AA women will be fathered mostly by white men who continue to be at the top of the food chain when it comes to privilege and resources. A WW paired with a BM still cannot trump that. WW attempting to have their children identify as anything but black know this reality and hence are attempting to garner as much WP as they can for their offspring via the erasure of the non-white father’s input.

          You are correct. BW/WM pairings have been so few in number that no one has had to consider the sociological and financial impact that these pairing will cause. We are about to find out what life is like when increasing numbers of biracial children receive benefits of their white father’s privileged position and well as the benefits black mothers nurturing and rearing. This is uncharted territory and a game changer.

      • I appreciate your response, but my question is not based on racism but rather the reality that there IS a difference in the way biracial children of white women and biracial children of black women are treated. And thus, in asking black women to consider their biracial children “not black” you’re asking them to fight for a cause then to deny their children the benefits of that fight.

        Let’s get real here, the vast majority of biracial people upon whom privilege is conferred have WHITE mothers. Thus it’s not a question asked from a racist perspective. I’m not questioning black men’s mating choices, because again, the mothers of those biracial children are not black and if/when those unions dissolve they take their children with them right back to their non-black communities. I’m also not questioning Asians, because it is not my concern so I’m not well versed in their cultural intricacies because it’s not relevant to me.

      • Gina, et al

        The point for encouraging black women to date and marry interracially was so that they weren’t limiting themselves to the dead end cesspool of mostly toxic black males. That and sheer numbers of black women outnumbering them, that it was impossible for an even pairing.

        This was always intended to happen AFTER black women had centered themselves in other areas of their lives, particularly making sure they had done the work in building or reinforcing racial and ethnic pride. Embracing their femininity and knowing how to choose wisely IF they didn’t already have these skills.

        There’s so much deprogramming involved in this journey because BW are fed a steady diet of “you are crap” amongst various toxic elements within the black ‘cultures’. Family upbringing, personal relationships and a woman tapping into her own agency/maturity will contribute to burdens and offer keys for overcoming obstacles that could get in the way.

        African American women are the most resistant to dating IRR because they’re still overly focused on BM/impacted by those elements until they recognize this and adjust. If they ever do. The reaction to the DBRs and starting off with less opportunities has been this sudden trendy “swirling” push where the concept of dating a WM took over for the substance of connecting with a quality mate who may happen to be a different race.

        Older black women who already married IRR are not always open to discussing it and some adopt a Highlander attitude. Younger women may be more willing and need guidance, while there’s always those BW that just went for broke in creating the life they want. There are many examples to choose from.

        Women in intra-cultural or inter-racial relationships both have to navigate acknowledging different heritage. The general consensus at one time was that BW would be more consciously supportive of “blackness”, but that isn’t automatically the case.

        The reason for the distinction is out of respect for the larger group and to focus on the group’s elevation, not individual pursuit. It isn’t to deny aspects of people’s heritage. Full appreciation is part and parcel for what someone with healthy race/ethnic pride does.

        Socially and politically there are ramifications to consider and protect. So, if you have child whose heritage has components distinct from your own, you make sure one doesn’t trump the other at the expense of “blackness” or the non-African American ethnicity but you also don’t get to IGNORE it by claiming it’s the same thing as those who do.

        And unless people in forums having these discussion know who you are, they’re vetting you. You should not take it personally or be surprised that people want some indication you’re not trying to obscure or disrupt serious review and implementation. If for no other reason than we’ve have these conversation repeatedly during the course of at least 7 years.

    • There will always be black people simply because white America does not allow everyone to claim they are white. Yes, Asian women are a “special” ww and that is probably because wm with a certain amount of economic power desire aw.
      Example, Donald Sterling or Donald Trump these are Billionaires no one is going to tell them who to date or marry. Who is going to tell them that they cannot desire an aw, an hw, or a bw?
      Money has it privileges.

    • it must be modern biracials.. because many older lightskinned blacks look what we call biracial
      so… does this mean those born before 1967 are not considered biracial

  4. I’m not surprised, this thief has stolen resources gear toward black women. Expect more of this foolery to emerge, because so many black women are rushing to defeat this buffoon.

  5. Great post OLS.

    But I’m on a different island. I’m not sure why but I just can’t seem to muster up enough energy or CARE to give to this lunatic other than laugh at her and her curly wigs she used to disguise herself as Black.

    I’m making a post now why I can’t seem to be as angry as many others are.

    But this is. It to say that I don’t UNDERSTANDS why other BW are bothered by this. For me, it’s like not surprising or shocking at all and neither is the response of BM.

    • I understand neecy. I’m not mad but you know I’ve got to point out the hypocrisy in responses to this women. The response to this loon is telling for black women to get OUT OF DODGE. If it wasn’t apparent before it should be apparent now.

  6. When it comes to the whole “classifying biracials as ‘other'” discussions, I think you have two different divisions (basically). You have the Kola Boof, “‘jet black’ African lineage protection” type. Then you have the Khadijah, “don’t try to take benefits, if you’re not willing to share the struggle” type. Personally, I identify with the latter more than the former.

    Reality is, most AAs aren’t “jet black”. Reality is ALSO that most AAs don’t like or WANT to be “jet black”. So, Kola Boof (whom I LOVE) is coming from a different place, background, identification, history, and objective. She has an “African” agenda. Sorry, but AAs ARE NOT “African”. Yes. They are “BLACK”, but at this point, to call them “African”, I personally feel is fallacious. Most AAs have never been to Africa, don’t speak African languages, don’t know African history, don’t understand African cultures, and don’t want to be identified as “African” in any “PURE” sense anyway. THIS NEEDS TO BE ACKNOWLEDGED AND ACCEPTED.

    As far as this whole “light-skinned/biracial” thing goes, I really don’t want to go off on any tangents with it, as you’ll always have people who want to say pointing out privilege differentials is all about “jealousy”. Fact of the matter is, I personally don’t care WHO is biracial/light-skinned. What I care about is whether the person is going to come over to AAs for support/resources then slap AAs in the face/deny them/try to “rule” over them LATER. This is a REAL issue with more serious implications, because they now have social and political means to exploit and suppress lesser mixed AAs than they did in the past. In the past, WHITES kept them “in check” by giving ALL of us the “N*GGER SMACKDOWN”. But, now that whites are declining in numerical prominence, they have a political incentive to open doors to others they previously shut out.

    Personally, I don’t care. You can GO, if you want. THE PROBLEM is that many/most of these “biracials” HAVE NOTHING of their own. They depend on AAs to establish a resource/political foundation. THEY HAVE **NOTHING** ( outside of their own “Delusions of Grandeur”–to those whom this statement applies). They definitely have NOTHING/NO STATUS, in their nonblack family community. So, they filch FROM US (AUTHENTIC AAs) who are too softhearted and foolish and allow them to get away with this nonsense.

    I understand what Khadijah’s suggesting. She’s trying to offer a general rule, to cut to the chase. My personal feeling is to keep those who genuinely identify with us, stand with us, and want to BE us, and kick out/show the door to those who don’t. That is a time and resource intensive process. We, as a group, don’t have the “reserve” for such in depth investigations. The clock is ticking down, and each successive “second” comes FASTER than the one before.

    For example, there was a BEA U TI FUL model on ANTM who had an AA mother and Native American father. She was from Las Vegas and was talking about how black girls are often overlooked in Vegas and she wanted to show how beautiful BLACK girls are TOO. Contrast this with a lot of these blasian/Christina
    Milian/Zoe Saldana types who use AA infrastructure for advancement while also trying to present themselves as superior to and separate from AAs.

    I always cared about protecting the collective of AAs. I never liked outsiders trying to fractionalize our group and people based upon differences in appearance and ancestry. Khadijah historically felt this way also. I’ve come to the point that I can see the harm, robbery, and injustices being done to AAs and AA history ( such as Harriet Tubman being represented by a biracial, and a NON AA biracial AT THAT). THIS HAS TO STOP. And, any AA/biracial with sense and a GENUINE LOVE for AAs will understand the importance of biracials “sitting down”, when it comes to being the “representatives” of blacks/AAs.

    My historical plan was to raise any “biracial” (a term I “hate”, because it is one of the most meaningless, ambiguous forms of identification out there today, in my opinion) children I have to identify as “black/AA”, because I always wanted them to look out for black interests. NOW, my plan is to have them fully identify both ancestries and to allow their AA family to have their own category and privileges, because I am NOT breeding/raising children to rob the RIGHTFUL LEGACY of my ancestors. My children better HONOR their ancestors and PRESERVE THE TRUTH of whom their ancestors are. So, YES. Any, biracial children I have will be taught to “take a seat” when BLACK/AA folks are talking about what IS AA and what are THE RIGHTS of AAs. And, if I ever have children with an African, they will be taught to “take a seat” TOO.

    • —Then you have the Khadijah, “don’t try to take benefits, if you’re not willing to share the struggle” type. Personally, I identify with the latter more than the former.—

      Totally understandable. But let me ask you this: When it comes to those who identify with “us” through and through (i.e. not just as a source of resources without solidarity) do you notice the difference between biracial black children with black mothers and those with non black mothers?

      Because I do.

      But I’m not going to dig into data/statistics to prove it.

      • I read your comment about the differences in treatment between biracials with black mothers and those with nonblack mothers, and I agree with you.

        I DO notice a difference. Let me start in differences in how they’re treated. I want to use two lovely Hollywood actresses as examples: Halle Berry and Salli Richardson. Both of them are VERY attractive and often selected to play the role of “black” women. However, Halle gets the most “clout” and attention, though I don’t personally think she is any “prettier”. Halle’s mom is white. Salli’s mom is black.

        Now, BOTH of these women identify as “black”. However, Halle’s mom always taught her while she was growing up that the world would see her as a “black” woman and treat her as one. Personally, I LOVE Halle. And, the fact that Halle identified Nahla as “black”, even though she said she would allow Nahla to choose for herself, shows me that Halle TRULY identifies with black women. I personally have no problem with Halle being an AA woman representative. KOLA BOOF does. But, Kola Boof is NOT AA.

        Now, Tiger, Mr, “Cablinasian” has a black father, yet doesn’t want to identify with black people. However, he has an Asian mother and doesn’t seem to want to identify with them EITHER. Tiger is another OJ. Only white is right.

        Oh well…

        Kimora is another one. She used to talk about being “black” but has said she would make herself look more “Asian” if she could. I know she said black girls were mean to her when she was growing up. I believe what Kola said about Kimora thinking she’s superior to blacks. I also believe what Kola said about Kimora calling Djimon “crispy”. And, you know what? I DON’T EVEN CARE. Evidently, Djimon thinks he’s “crispy” TOO, because he made sure to breed with a woman who looks more like an Asian.


        Biracial people are always a mixed bag. The psychology of the parents heavily influences the children. They get more privileges if the mother isn’t black. But, I think that will start to change as more white men of status have children with black women. At the end of the day, self hating people frequently raise self thing children.

        I don’t know if I adequately answered your question. I guess I only want to get rid of the ones who don’t truly identify with us. The rest can stay. But ONLY if they are sincerely loyal. As I said above, I don’t care who’s light-skinned mixed. I only care about those who are JUST to my ancestors/people.

        • Excellent points & observation. I never thought about this until now, the treatment of biracial children who have AA mothers & those biracial children who have non AA mothers. Very good analysis.

        • Thanks, DLB.

          I’ve noticed the reluctance to present BW as IR partners and mothers of “beautiful” biracial babies. It seems many want to project the notion that nonblack mothers are required for these results. Not the case.

          Back to the treatment of the actresses, do you think Hunger Games fans would have been as angry/resentful of that young girl getting that part, if her mother had been white instead of black? I’m not asking a rhetorical question. I wonder what other people think about this.

        • Halle has never had any real solidarity with black women. She’s discussed in terms of her acting career it was every woman for herself. She may identify as “black” only because she CANNOT be white! And she can say her daughter is black all day, but no person who is 3/4ths or more of one race gets to automatically claim the race of the one they’re barely have 1/4th tie with. Carly Simon is 1.4th or less black as well, but she identifies and is viewed at as white. Her mother was also biracial, but given her phenotype, life experiences and heritage (and wealth) of her father and his family, she’s always been considered part of the other group.

        • Courageous,

          Halle MAY identify as “black” due to a lack of options in the past. I, personally, see this as more of a Mariah Carey issues than a Halle issue, as Mariah made efforts to be a part of the “white” Latino group before finally settling with an AA. However, she’s returning to her white preference. And, I don’t blame her. I just wish AAs would stop classifying her as a “black”, when she clearly doesn’t want to be one–even though her speech style is “blacker” than mine. Mariah has our “voice”, otherwise she is nothing like us. This is why she is so popular and well paid. She has the BW’s voice but not the BW’s look.

          As far as Halle’s claim that it’s “every woman for herself” in Hollywood, I have read equivalent statements from Vanessa Williams and Phylicia Rashad. To me, it sounds like the more “acceptable” girls not acknowledging the privileges they receive simply because they do not get the same treatment as whites.

          And, NO, in this day and age, Nahla will not be viewed as “black” ESPECIALLY because of her economic status and socialization. However, Halle has the political leeway to categorize her daughter as “other” off the bat. Did Halle make this choice to protect her economic leverage in the AA community? I never thought of it in that way before. Possibly so. But, I know I appreciate seeing Halle (a woman who publicly calls herself “black”) in commercials, movies, and tv shows as the love interest and marriage partner of WM. it helps to normalize these pairings. No. I don’t want Halle to replace two AA parent BW. Nor do I want “biracial” acceptance to be viewed as the same thing as “black” acceptance. But, to me, Halle has been married to BM, is 80% deaf in one ear from being BEATEN by a BM, has been sued by a former BM partner, saw her BM father beat her mother and sister, has always called herself black/AA, and was raised by her white mother to see herself as a BW. So, until she starts publicly identifying herself as “other”, I accept her claim as “black”. She’s utilizing the benefits she’s acquired from her career and distancing herself from Blackistan. Many BW who do the same will be viewed as “questionable” in the sincerity of their professed identification with blacks/AAs.

          I think an important question is how much do we equate the progress of lighter, more mixed BW with the progress of BW overall? I don’t think the issue with Halle is “BW identification” but rather whether it is sufficient for darker women to be neglected and overlooked while hailing “BW” progress because the “Halles, Vanessas, and Phylicias” are able to get ahead (though not without challenge)? I think we know the sentiments of individuals on this board. But, this is actually a different issue, though related.

        • Hi, Courageous (Faith).

          I just wanted to share this article/link, because I think it shows similarities between the mentalities of many AA women and Halle Berry. I’m also going to paste the article below.



          Halle Berry Shares Domestic Abuse Story For Awareness
          By Baby J June 20, 2011 3:28 PM

          Oscar award winning Halle Berry says she is on a mission to raise awareness regarding domestic violence issues. Earlier last week Berry attended The Mayors Fund Benefit In New York City to show her support of the family justice centers. She apparently shared her very personal memoir of watching her mother being abused by her father. Halle also pointed out that in her adult life she’s unfortunately dated several men who were just like her father. Halle has since then decided to break the cycle after losing over 80 percent of her hearing. 80′s & 90′s R&B singer Christopher Williams for years had taken the blame for Halle’s hearing loss until he clarified for the media that actor Wesley Snipes was actually the culprit responsible for causing Halle to lose her hearing in one ear. Halle said:

          “When I was a girl and my mother had the s–t kicked out of her, her self-esteem moved onto me.”

          “I devalued myself and thought I wasn’t worth it. I chose partners that mimicked my father. It was only when I was in an abusive relationship and blood squirted on the ceiling of my apartment and I lost 80% of my hearing in my ear that I realized, I have to break the cycle.”

          “I want women to stand up and break the silence and get rid of the shame and the fear and find a way to stand up for themselves.”

          “I never had to run to a shelter, but I did choose the wrong partners. Not always good men. Luckily, in recent years, I have been smart enough to hit the door when violence even becomes a possibility. That is something I will not tolerate.”

          What are your thoughts on domestic abuse? Have you or anyone in your family suffered from abuse by the hands of a loved one? How did you deal with it?

          Read More: Halle Berry Shares Domestic Abuse Story For Awareness |

        • well HALLE and TIGER look full black to me… just because they are lightskinned
          could it be that they were raised among a bicultural area.. instead of two lightskinned black parents who have French and irish blood waaay back when

          Christelyn Karazin has her kids out on one of her videos….looking like a mom who has privilege

      • Courageous,

        Oh, Mariah ALSO has AA/”hood” socialization, which is why I think she was never able to successfully “crossover” to the white Latinos in her personal life.

        • Halle is and has always been a biracial who got worked in black projects, made to leap to “mainstream” – failed but by then she’d won an Oscar and gotten enough endorsement deals her movie career doesn’t matter. Mariah is Afro Latino who codes as white and used African Americans and her proximity to BM rappers to make her career. The same with JLo for that matter. These women got success because they were propped up by black males period. I can’t speak to anything they’ve specifically done to elevate black women.

        • Courageous,

          I TOTALLY agree with your analysis of JLo and Mariah Carey. However, Jennifer lost Ben, and Mariah ended up marrying Nick. “Poetic Justice”, one might say. And, I also agree Halle was propped up by BM. But, I honestly never realized Halle was BR, until she came out and said so. I was SHOCKED, actually, because Halle always looked like an AAW to me, especially since she wore her hair straight and short. Since Halle is almost 50 years old, I accepted her claim that she identifies as a BW. And, as you say, her attempt to “crossover” to mainstream FAILED–because, ULTIMATELY, (IMO) US society sees Halle as A BW.

          We each see different things in different situations. I can’t think of Halle carrying out any “MAJOR CAMPAIGN” to promote AAW. However, SHE DID help bring Dorothy Dandridge’s story to the public eye, again. And, I appreciated that. Dorothy DESERVED it. AND, NO, Dorothy Dandridge WAS NOT “BR”, as some would probably like to claim because of her looks. Look up her mama Ruby Dandridge and her father Cyril Dandridge, if one has any doubts. I don’t think Halle is any “AAW Champion”, but when her white mama taught her she was “black”, HALLE BELIEVED HER. This is all my own PERSONAL opinion, of course.

    • THIS is exactly what I AM TRYING TO SAY. Entirely. I literally could not have put it better myself.
      thank you. Its just hard to say because as you said AA black women are always accused of being jealous and bitter when
      this topic comes up.

      • Oh. Believe me. I understand. AA women are not allowed to have feelings, thought, responses to anything, without it being a result of their deficiencies or envy as women.

        You’re welcome.

        That’s why I frequently don’t waste time addressing certain topics, because you can never have honest discourse without people trying to twist things around and upside down. AA women’s feelings/observations are VALID. And, they ARE NOT crazy/jealous. People just want to shut us up because they don’t like dealing with the truth.

        Thank you for this post.

      • OLS,

        I don’t think (at least not in my case for argument) that it’s about saying BW are jealous, but there is some RESENTMENT and rightfully so. Being resentful is much different than jealousy just as envy isn’t the same as jealousy. Any race of woman would feel the same way in BWs shoes. So being resentful is not necessarily a bad thing IMO unless you do not work around ways to deal with it.

        I don’t think I could ever say BW do not have a right to resent the fact light/mixed women have been pushed above them. But it’s time to let it go because any non mixed BW divesting from atypical black dysfunction and black men will find light and mixed women in the global arena are pretty much on even keel in terms of dating non BM. some light mixed women may be just as resentful that non BM may choose to pursue more “authentic” BW even though they may consider themselves black as well.

        But BW who plan to promote crossing the color lines also need to be very careful about how you position yourselves in terms of feelings with light and mixed women because these are the very women you will be pushing for your womb with those non black men. If these resentments are not dealt with, they can and will carry onto your offspring and create tension and problems between mother and daughter.

        • “But BW who plan to promote crossing the color lines also need to be very careful about how you position yourselves in terms of feelings with light and mixed women because these are the very women you will be pushing for your womb with those non black men. If these resentments are not dealt with, they can and will carry onto your offspring and create tension and problems between mother and daughter.”

          This is the main point that so many BW fail to accept.

          Full-black men are NOT in competition with light/mixed BM and full-black men can elevate the beauty of mixed race women without hurting the BLACK man’s image.

          Also, non-black mothers of mixed-race black daughters are not in competition with their half-black daughters because all races of women are considered above BW in the beauty hierarchy, so a white, Asian or other non-black mother of a mixed-black daughter will not feel “replaced” by her mixed daughter.

          Black women are actually the ONLY group of people who are easily replaced by their own mixed race offspring. That is fact. So making mixed race babies is more emotionally complicated for BW than for any other group of people. When a full black woman elevates the beauty of her mixed-race daughter, she simultaneously degrades the beauty of BW because full BW and light/mixed BW are in COMPETITION.

          Can we at least be honest and admit that when BW have mixed daughters, they are hurting full BW like themselves? We can accept that many BW have no choice but to seek non-black partners while accepting the cons of doing so. Yes, BM are also hurting full-black women when they reproduce with non-black women, but BM don’t give a damn about full BW. In fact, most BM want the BW’s image to be mixed so BM actually WIN when BW are replaced by biracial women. Dark skin, nappy hair broad/thick features are not considered unattractive on men. The BM is free to be unabashedly black and to revel in his “black” beauty so he need not fear a lighter version of himself.

          The BW who want to pretend that there is no difference between a BM creating mixed race offspring and a BW creating mixed race offspring are being deliberately disingenuous. The truth is that many(most?) BW have a difficult time being mothers of mixed race children. These BW have to endure watching their daughters replace full-black women in many occupations(not just the media), and they will also have to deal with the pain of seeing their mixed daughters adored by men who would not give a mono-racial BW the time of day. Many BW will have a mental breakdown when the successful BM who rejected them when they were young will now move heaven and earth to have their mixed race daughters. Colorism always hurts females more than males, and this is true in non-black racial groups as well.

          Also, what happens when a BW’s mixed race son chooses a non-black women as his wife/partner? Will the BW feel hurt that her son is not attracted to women who look like her? Many BW condemn BM for not wanting women who “look like their mothers”. So will biracial men also be condemned for not wanting women who look like their mono-racial black mothers? I think many BW who are dating IR have a fantasy that they will raise their mixed son to love BW while raising their mixed daughters to hate BM. But most of those BM will be disappointed because even if their mixed daughters don’t choose BM, their mixed race sons won’t choose BW either. Most mixed race men are not like President Obama.

          In European countries, most half-black people do not marry black. As the mixed population grows and mixed people are increasingly accepted into mainstream American society and don’t have to identify as black, they will have dating options that exclude black people. Now most BW will be happy if their mixed race daughters choose non-black men. But I can guarantee you that most BW will feel some type of way when(not if) their mixed race sons choose non-black women. Because most BW have SERIOUS issues surrounding colorism and marrying non-black will not change this.

    • @OLS–Great discussion!!

      @Formavitae re:

      “And, if I ever have children with an African, they will be taught to “take a seat” TOO.”

      Well, I do have 2 grown sons who are 1/2 Nigerian (dad’s Nigerian) and though they do have certain Nigerian privileges (dual citizenship, can own land in Nigeria, hold certain offices, bloodline recognition there, etc.) since they are male children of a full-blooded Nigerian, they have been accused of being “fake-Nigerians” several times by Nigerians. And re this discussion, since they mostly grew up in the U.S., and have an AA mother (me), typical Nigerians would never, ever allow them to represent Nigerians as a group. NEVER! They would tell my sons to “take a seat” REAL FAST!

      AAs, however, would and do allow my sons to totally represent us even though my sons don’t fully know the AA experience. AAs embrace and often try to claim my sons because my sons are upstanding professional men. My sons have often been encouraged to speak for AA males as a group! I don’t allow that even if they wanted to do so because they don’t know critical aspects of the AA male’s full experience. They sometimes ask me questions about AA males, so I know that they don’t know these things. Of course, AAs don’t know that my sons are not actually AAs in key ways because most AAs do not know the parameters of AA identity themselves.

      I read where some are asking where can biracial blacks go if AA’s refuse to take them in. The fact is that other groups don’t care about where biracials or biculturals go. My sons have had to find their own places to fit in and carve out their own lives. They have friends and a network comprised of various cultures. I can’t imagine any full-blooded Nigerian I’ve ever met would allow my sons to have their children’s resources, no matter what. If they even tried, that would turn into the mother of all fights!

      • Evia,

        The message posted, before I was done. But, AAs generally do things OPPOSITE of the ways in which others do. My East Indian ex WAS QUICK to point out who was only “HALF” Indian, even if the other “half” was WHITE. He also rejected the notion of “Aryans” as being “true” Indians, though that is an entirely different discussion.

        Other groups protect their identity and boundaries. I’ve never had any “fanciful notions” that any half-AA children I may have would ever be accepted as being “the same” as their father’s people. That will NEVER happen, AND I KNOW IT.

      • @Evia,
        I agree. Nigerians from what I can see they do not play.
        One Nigerian social website made it very clear who is Nigerian…they wrote it on the front of their website…as their children use AA intended scholarships. One good part is some of those educated Nigerians continue to marry AA people.

  7. Part 1


    You said, “. . . *If Khadija is reading these comments or any other BWE writers are reading these comments who have talked about this in the past I ask that you give your perspective as this question is always being directed at black women.”

    You asked, so here I am—LOL!


    You said, “I have a sincere question for those who don’t acknowledge biracial children as black: Where does that leave all the black women who (for whatever reason) are being encouraged to expand their dating pool to include non-black men if they want to marry and have children within a marriage? If that is done, on any double digit percentage scale, what then happens to “Blacks” especially when many of the women doing so are supporters of black women’s empowerment?”

    You went on to say, “I’ve had more time to digest this and here are my thoughts:

    1- Can we have a discussion without questioning motives or presenting the comment in the light as though I’m gas lighting or being disingenous? I don’t want to waste posts explaining that my question is sincere.
    2- I also want to be able to discuss this issue without being asked/indicated why I’m not asking this of other groups of people or only asking this of black women. Considering the context, this conversation is appropriate.

    You’re sincere and you’re not a troll. You’ve been a participant in previous discussions; you’re not an unknown—and therefore suspicious—individual asking these questions. Nevertheless, I must mention that what you’re asking IS a question that trolls frequently and *singularly* direct at BW. In short, you’re not a troll, but your question IS a FAQ by trolls.

    Please understand that this widely observed pattern probably colors other readers’ reactions to that question. They know (like I know as somebody who’s moderated a BWE blog) that folks (aka trolls) who hate the very notion of self-actualization for AABW are desperate to disrupt and gaslight BW-centric conversations.

    I’m all for vigilance when it comes to BWE-centric spaces. If I didn’t know about your prior history as a commenter here, I’d have *no* way to distinguish your sincere asking of this question from the bad faith asking of this same question since 2007/2008 by the Internet Ike Turners who would (if they could) deny AABW any options other than waiting on BM. And the tone of my reaction/response would be verrry different.

    To be continued…

  8. Part 2

    Gina, you asked what happens to Blacks” if double-digit percentages of BW marry nonblack men and classify their biracial children as nonblack. [I assume you’re specifically referencing African-American BW in your question.]

    My reaction is very similar to what OLS and lizh08 said in response to that question. In summary:

    (1) I find it an odd question because I’m wondering how did AA Black WOMEN become the sole AA gender being held responsible for the fate of AA Blacks? You don’t mean the question this way, but the unspoken assumption that’s usually underlying that question—the assumption that AABW are obligated to be responsible for and worrying about the AA race’s future in ways that AABM are NOT and never have been—smacks of bad faith and the exploitation of AABW.

    I would liken it to the injustice of an irresponsible, neglectful parent (read = breeder) expecting and demanding that their oldest underage child take on all the adult responsibilities of taking care of their baby siblings all day-everyday while the parent goes out to party and does whatever the heck they want to do.

    And then the neglectful parent forms their lips to ask their parentified child the questions: “What’s going to happen to your baby sister if you don’t fix her bottle, feed her, change her diaper, and bathe her? What’s going to happen to your other little sister if you don’t cook breakfast, lunch and dinner for her all week? What do you mean you want to go to school every school day and live like other 5th graders?!?” The underlying premise of these questions is illegitimate. For obvious reasons.

    (2) And I think a similar dynamic applies to the question you asked in sincere good faith. Basically, for the same reason that lizh08 mentioned: on a patriarchal planet, the responsibility for ensuring the survival of a tribe is on the MEN of that tribe.

    As individuals and as a collective, the males of the AA tribe have been on a mission to (as one of my friends puts it) “work the Black OUT” of their bloodlines. AABM have been on this “work the Black OUT” mission since the end of slavery. Because of this, the AA Black tribe does NOT *have* a future. And, really, the tribe hasn’t had a future since the 1980s/the beginning of hip-hop-(c)rap. [Which is when AABM stopped all remaining pretense of caring about the AA Black tribe.]

    The vast majority of AABW couldn’t see that the tribe has been undead and composed of zombies for decades—(a) because of self-delusion, and (b) because the AA collective has been subsisting on the dwindling fumes of the marriage patterns we had while living under segregation. Subsisting on the illusion created by AABM being FORCED at literal gunpoint during segregation to refrain from chasing after and marrying White women. Generations of AABW fooled themselves into believing that BW were something other than AABM’s last-resort mating and marriage choice.

    Like I said, the AA tribe has been an unliving, UNDEAD entity for several generations. AA Blacks have been on an extinction trajectory since the 1960s; with the bottom really falling out in the 80s. The physical survival pressures created by segregation forced AABM to play-act and pantomime the most rudimentary gestures of pretending to care about AABW and Black children. Because AABM knew they needed AABW’s support and cooperation in order to survive. Those pressures are gone; AABM don’t think they need BW anymore; and so AABM are free to act based on their TRUE preferences. Which is what they’ve been doing since the 1960s.

    So, as far as I’m concerned, the what happens to Blacks” question has been MOOT and a done deal since the 1980s (at the latest). Women CAN’T prop up a tribe’s survival by themselves. Women CAN’T prop up or ensure a tribe’s future by themselves. A tribe that lacks the active support of a majority of its men has NO future. The quiet seeds for today’s noisy implosion of the AA Black collective were watered and nurtured decades ago. This death spiral was set in motion decades ago.

    To be continued….

  9. I should rephrase my question. I see now that it’s poorly worded. I’m not asking what happens to the black collective (i.e. black people in general), I’m asking what happens to those women’s actual children if they are biracial and not considered black.

    Because the “benefits” of being biracial are mostly conferred upon the children of white women, black women can’t presume that they too will have those benefits available for their children. But if they, as black women, are also working along the lines that biracial women “don’t belong” as part of the authentically black experience, then she is working against the best interests of her own offspring if she accepts that ideology.

    So to re-iterate, I’m not putting the burden of “maintaining blackness” upon the backs of black women, I’m bringing up a reality that we haven’t really dealt with yet because black women haven’t “mated out” to any significant degree and thus the biracial “co-opters of blackness” we have dealt with have mostly been the offspring of white women.

    • Gina,
      To my mind the problem isn’t that people are simply “co opting blackness” by itself. It’s that these people BECAUSE they are still partly white are allowed to speak for the entirity of black WOMEN. and again I only notice this happens to groups of black WOMEN. In which black WOMEN are allowed to move aside while this group is given priority. Secondly another issue i’ve noticed is as another commentor has said is that while the Zoe Saldana’s use black (mostly black american women) as a monetery prop while they pretend to identify with our group. They then dump that “persona” once they have gotten what they need and take their resources elsewhere. If I had children who were bi-racial I would acknolwedge that they are both black AND white. I don’t understand why this is an either or. To do the opposite would be to deny their heritage that they are also white. Further I would make sure that my children weren’t simply parasites to the group they are taking resources from but understand what RECIPROCITY is. Something that BM/WW have failed to teach their bi-racial children for the large part unfortunately.

      • I understand that.

        The issue, as I see it, is that this is a problem MOSTLY perpetuated by the children of white mothers. I keep pointing that out, but it keeps getting lost as an important distinguishing factor. The vast majority of biracial black women, who are problematic, are the children of black men and non black women. It therefore is to be expected that when the two intersect, there would be a high level of anti black woman sentiment. One because of the influence of the men who, by far and large, dislike black women, and two because of the influence of non black women who, by far and large, dislike black women.

        And because of this, a particular “way” of dealing with their offspring is being put into place under the presumption that the biracial children of black women would behave the same way.

        Most would not.

        Yes, there are some self-hating black women who would also produce such offspring, but, when you look at the BWE movement, and the gains to be made from that movement, it stands to reason that the majority of THOSE women who eventually marry out would NOT produce those problematic offspring.

        The problem that we have, that we are dealing with, is not the result of the childrearing of black women who have married out, but to not distinguish between their future/potential/current offspring and the offspring of the result of (largely) anti black woman unions, is, IMO, to ask her to work against the benefit of her children.

        So, as *I* see it. The problem is not that biracial women per-se are speaking for black women, it is that the children of white/non-black mothers, who are often raised with a level of anti-black woman sentiment, a feeling of superiority, and some of the “trickle down” privilege and attitudes of whiteness (or non-blackness), have been given priority. As *I* see it, it is less an issue of their mixed race and MORE of an issue of who is raising them.

        • You know what, Gina, I feel where you’re coming from. Honestly, I think the PRIMARY thing AA women need to do is MARRY HIGH QUALITY MEN. AA women are GORGEOUS and VERY INTELLIGENT/SUCCESSFUL. AA women can attract MANY high quality men.

          The primary reason BM/nonBW talk this BS to BW and try to act “superior” to BW is because AA women do not go out and get what they REALLY could HAVE. Once AA women start marrying successful, healthy white/Asian/other nonBM, and having successful and happy families with these men, a lot of this BS will get SHUT DOWN.

          RIGHT NOW, these groups are talking BS, because so many AA women are ALONE and not pairing with the men who are truly their “equal” mates. But, once Becky/Mei Ling/Maria sees “Tanya” with Seth/Pradeep/Alejandro, THRIVING and CHERISHED, she will BREAK.DOWN. And, I wouldn’t be surprised to see these women start dropping their BM in droves, because many of them just use BM to elevate their status and “gas their heads up” in believing they are above BW.

          THE BEST THING AA women can do is THRIVE, BE LOVED, and HAVE A HAPPY LIFE.

        • Welcome back everyone.

          B. A. M. what you said. Exactly the biracial females with nonBW mothers tends to be the “challenge”. In a phrase…”she gets it from her mama” You’re correct this rarely gets address–The nonBW mother’s and father’s racial issues with BW that colors the biracial daughter’s perception of herself and BW.

          Formative said below…biracial daughters from BW tend to NOT be a problem.

    • Gina,

      Oh, I see—now I understand your original question better.

      You excluded the observed experiences of the children of Asian women married to WM in an earlier comment. You said, “Let’s get real here, the vast majority of biracial people upon whom privilege is conferred have WHITE mothers. Thus it’s not a question asked from a racist perspective. I’m not questioning black men’s mating choices, because again, the mothers of those biracial children are not black and if/when those unions dissolve they take their children with them right back to their non-black communities. I’m also not questioning Asians, because it is not my concern so I’m not well versed in their cultural intricacies because it’s not relevant to me.”

      I don’t really agree with that premise. I think the Asian mother of half-White children example is relevant in certain ways. I see plenty of half-White/half-Asian children of Asian mothers who are operating with large chunks of White privilege. From all sorts of people on TV and people in the professions who from their appearance are clearly not all-White (like Jon Gosselin, for example). The thing is, like OLS said earlier, “Mei Ling” does NOT let her half-White, hapa children speak on behalf of the full-Asian ethnic group she belongs to.

      To specifically answer your question about the fate of AABW’s future biracial children: I expect that they’ll be in trouble—similar to, but not quite as much as—full-Black children.

      The AA Black tribe is in a death spiral, so there won’t be any AA Black block of resources for half-Black biracial children (or full-Black AA children) to draw from.

      I figure that within the next 15-20 years, there won’t be any meaningful AA Black resources left for half-Black biracials to draw from (regardless of how they’re identified—as either Black or as nonblacks).

      For one example, Raven-Symone got her initial come-up support from the AA Blacks of roughly 30 years ago. The AA Black mindset that enthusiastically supported the presence of a sitcom featuring a wholesome, upper-middle-class AA Black family is long gone. She’s still counting money she got from “fumes” from decades ago. That particular heifer better have good investments. White media will pay her to spout New Black nonsense on talk shows (much like the half-Mexican Stacey Dash), but who’s the target audience to support her acting career? It’s not White folks. It’s not sane, sensible AA Blacks. And it’s not like New Blacks actively support the aspirations of other New Blacks.

      I can’t remember who mentioned Kola Boof, but she’s an interesting case study of what we’re talking about. IF I remember correctly, SHE’S biracial herself (half Arab and half Black African)! In my view, she’s recently been dragging AAs about the nuances and concerns many of us have when it comes to this issue.

      And she’s loudly telling AAs that Africans would never consider/call a half-Black person “Black,” but she reserves the right to call *herself* “Black” even though she’s half-Arab. But I stay in my lane—however she chooses to identify herself is an issue for Africans. I respect the work that Kola Boof has done that has brought benefit to AABW (like the online campaign about the gross miscasting of a WW’s daughter as Aaliyah). But I would prefer that non-AAs #stayintheirlane when it comes to AA identity issues.

      Finally, I’M a light-skinned BW. I personally feel that any hand-wringing or worry about light-skinned BW is utterly unnecessary. Light-skinned BW have always been privileged relative to medium-brown and darker-skinned BW. I don’t see that changing to a situation in which light-skinned BW become downtrodden relative to darker-skinned BW within my lifetime. It’s certainly not going to change into that any time soon. I’m just sayin . . .

      • You are right, I did exclude Asian women / white men pairings.

        So, for my context, I’m speaking of biracial-black. Not biracial non-black because I honestly, as bad as this sounds, forget about biracial non-black because IME they refer to themselves as the mix of the two races. I can’t recall hearing/reading a non black biracial refer to themselves as biracial. IME, “biracial” has been a catch-all for black and “something else” although I acknowledge that the term extends beyond that.

        Now on to the point

        —“Mei Ling” does NOT let her half-White, hapa children speak on behalf of the full-Asian ethnic group she belongs to.—-

        EXACTLY! YES! EXACTLY! And the point I am making is that most of these black-biracials who have been speaking on behalf of the full black group have been the children of…

        NON BLACK WOMEN! THAT is my point.

        “The internet” says that Kola Boof’s mother is Somalian. Now we can’t always trust the internet, but usually for ME when these issues come up, I go “let’s google their parents and see if the black parent is the dad” because for me, THAT has been the issue.

        • Gina,

          Oh yeah, the Black parent being the dad is always an issue with biracials.

          I know that I’m inclined toward paranoia—LOL—but I wouldn’t gamble my future on the notion that we can assume the half-Other daughters of BWE supporters will automatically be deeply loyal to AA Blacks and less destructive to AA Black interests than the half-Other children of Black fathers. I’ve been distressed over the years to see how easy it is for ALL ideological categories of AAs to get waaay off-course.

          Some quick examples—I was appalled to see how so many BWE readers twisted conversations about marrying Alpha-male personality men into the notion of only seeking to date the financial top 3% of men. I was appalled to see more than a few long-time BWE readers who thought it was a good idea (and harmless to AABW’s interests) for them to run out to see “Red Tails.” [With the excuse of “It’s just a movie.”]

          The historical pattern is that each group/category of persons AABW have assumed will be in our corner have betrayed us overall. As we get further and further away from Jim Crow, the world views being expressed by ALL demographics of AAs (whether full or part-Black) are getting weirder and weirder. From not comprehending that Friends With Benefits = Pump & Dump, to the use of educated jargon accompanied by very little common sense.

          I look at the modern day Marketplace Of Mostly Crazy & Utterly Lacking In Common Sense Ideas that surrounds young people in the U.S. who’s not culturally insulated from that mess like the Amish or Mormons, and I don’t feel comfortable assuming that anybody else is going to keep their heads screwed on straight over the long haul. Would any of our ancestors who lived under segregation have predicted that large numbers of modern-day AAs would actually cape for somebody like the WW NAACP imposter?

        • —I wouldn’t gamble my future on the notion that we can assume the half-Other daughters of BWE supporters will automatically be deeply loyal to AA Blacks and less destructive to AA Black interests than the half-Other children of Black fathers. —

          Point taken. And you’re right, we can’t assume.

    • Gina, I’ll use my experience as the mother of 2 bicultural children to do my best to respond to your question.

      I invested heavily in Nigerian culture since I’d planned to live in Nigeria for the rest of my life when I married a Nigerian. So I invested a lot in all the key ways: financially (lots of money since I transferred money and equipment there to start a business) culturally (pretty much said goodbye to my family and this country, took classes for long periods to learn the language, learned and taught my children key aspects of Nigerian culture), geographically (packed up everything and moved to Nigeria), etc. In other words, I made a full commitment to become a part of Nigerian culture, forever and ever, for myself and my children.

      Over the decades, I’ve helped a lot of Nigerians and other Africans in major ways. I still help them even though I’ve been divorced from my ex for about 15 years. I do this for the sake of my children.

      YET, Nigerians still will never accept my children as “Nigerians” and I believe that only a tiny few of them would think that my sons should get resources that are for “Nigerians” because the best resources are scarce everywhere. My children will always be bicultural and I will always be an American to 99.99999% of Nigerians. I accepted that and feel very satisfied with the return I’ve gotten because I vetted my husband well and he delivered for me. But for the sake of my children, I would have made the investment even if I’d been told I personally wouldn’t get ANY return for myself personally because the AA situation has been in free fall for a long time and some of us recognized that very early and made a decision to get out fast.

      As a slight aside, this is another reason why I stress the supreme importance of vetting ANY kind of man well. Suppose I had married a no-good Nigerian bum! I would have lost everything and my children would have undoubtedly been impacted negatively.

      So, when you have a BI-child, it’s a risk that you take. You invest in certain ways in other things and people and you know that you may never get a full return. You have to consider a bunch of factors and decide at the getgo whether it’s worth it to you. It’s a personal decision that each woman makes.

      • its even weird when you have a ‘tri child’
        when father is already mixed with some kind of Asian and white
        and THEN you add the black part in…..quite funny….LOL
        besides, to me, Halle Berry and Tiger Woods look full black to me since I’ve seen many blacks who look like them with black parents

        the only strange thing, is when a black marries a EUROPEAN-not WHITE AMERICAN from England and /or Germany and have twins… they completely SPLIT and the white one looks WHITE…..while the black one looks black.

  10. Part 3

    Given that the outcome of what will become of the Blacks was already been determined at least 30-35 years ago (the AA Black tribe has been undead for at least the last 3 decades and is now transitioning from walking zombiehood to heaps of immobile ashes), the remaining question for each self-actualizing AABW becomes:

    What kind of overall environment do *I* want to live in during the rest of my life-span?

    Healthy, self-actualizing AABW are already the Last Mohicans in terms of traditional AA “Big Mama’s House” culture. That traditional AA culture is already dead and gone in terms of the masses of current-day AAs.

    Regardless of their fathers’ race, our [collective] daughters will be VERY different from those of us who grew up among the remnants (an example of the “fumes” I referenced earlier) of traditional AA Black culture and identity. The AA racially all-Black daughters that exist right now are already VERY different from us culturally. The cultural universe that has surrounded them is totally different than what existed pre-hip-hop-(c)rap.

    Colored girls who have opinions similar to Raven-Symone’s didn’t just drop out of the sky. This WW NAACP imposter mess simply gave all these New Blacks an opportunity to show the rest of us who they really are. And it yanked the final scales from the eyes of those of us who are still sane and ethnically and racially self-respecting. The illusion of a sane AA Black collective has been shattered. Anybody among us who didn’t know the AA Black tribe was beyond salvage should know better after seeing so many tribe members caping for that WW scam artist. {hearing Cyndi Lauper’s song “True Colors”}

    So, the question becomes—Do I want to live in an environment that replicates the worst features of how my great-grandmothers/grandmothers image was handled PLUS a side twist of modern-day, (c)rap-hip-hop-style depravity and degradation of BW?

    Do *I* want to have an environment for the rest of my days in which MY image is portrayed (if at all) as either Lena Horne/Dorothy Dandridge OR Hattie McDaniel wearing a dog leash while some negro male slides a credit card between her breasts and butt cheeks?

    To be continued…{I apologize for taking up this much air-time in the comment section. OLS asked me to respond and I’m trying to be thorough}

  11. Part 4

    Earlier, I said the AA Black tribe is in a death spiral, so there won’t be any AA Black block of resources for half-Black biracial children (or full-Black AA children) to draw from. Therefore, I figure that within the next 15-20 years, there won’t be any meaningful AA Black resources left for half-Black biracials to draw from (regardless of how they’re identified—as either Black or as nonblacks).

    As I see is, ALL types of visibly half-Black biracials (as a collective—whether they identify as Black or as nonblack) will be in a bad spot relative to other types of biracials in this country. They’re going to get a nasty surprise from the various other categories of biracials. Similar to how I believe Latinos will get a VERY nasty surprise from the emerging Asian-American elite/emerging power structure 15-20 years down the road.

    Asians are wisely allowing Latinos to be the stigmatized public face of illegal immigration, and the refusal to assimilate into American norms. While Asians quietly flood the country and the professions. Asian-Americans are similar in many ways to the Jews in their trajectory in this country.

    Latinos are making immigration-related breakthroughs that will ultimately benefit Asian-Americans the most. In every dimension, Asian countries and cultures are stronger than Latino countries and cultures (militarily, economically, study habits cultures, etc.).

    • Khadija thank you! I agree. while the other groups of biracial/mixed groups are *actively* fighting to use their white privilege (see Asian/white children and “non black” latinos”) mixed blacks have been duped into believing that they should simply accept that they are ONLY black. It doesn’t help AA full blacks but it certainly doesn’t help those bi-racial children. And as you said when the white identifying bi-racial people change the landscape the mixed people who were now dumped in the black category ONLY will be in for a big surprise. Which is very troubling because it won’t help bw’s so called future children EITHER. That is why i say for black women, based on the current trajectory of the bottoming out of the ENTIRE black community and its resources, is is imprtant to Full african american black women to build themselves up INDIVIDUALLY so that they have INDIVIDUAL resources for their children. Because as you said in 15-20 years the “community” they are fighting so hard to identify with will screw EVERYONE.
      Further AA black women will not simply cease to exist as more bi-racial people are born. Which means if bw don’t have resources NOW things will only get WORSE as time goes on. What you are seeing is mad scramble as the racial climate changes.You better get yours for yourself so you’ll have *something* to give to your family. If individual AA don’t have anything well their kids won’t fair any better. I’m surprised people don’t get that.

      • YEP. Having your own capital is THE KEY, as well as offering something of positive value to others. AAs need to get in on DEVELOPMENT (capital, technological, intellectual, etc). They need to be “assets” who will be drawn into the decision making/leadership process and not just currency “siphoned away” for financing.

    • I recently heard a news story about Asian students challenging their rate of admissions to certain highly ranked institutions. They were saying that the numbers accepted didn’t reflect the numbers of those highly qualified, and that there is an “Asian penalty”.

      Whites are going to have something to deal with TOO, because Asians have intellectual, economic, AND cultural infrastructure to SUCCESSFULLY challenge them. I think all groups are going to realize AAs weren’t the “threat/problem” they THOUGHT they were, and SOME AAs are going to realize what they’ve lost/wasted.

        • Yep. They’ve been quiet about it. But, I can see that Asians are moving towards more political involvement, integration, and “muscle flexing”. I’m not necessarily against that, if they are going to do what’s good for THIS country. But, AAs are going to get SCREWED.

        • China owns the USA. And they STAY hacking into Americas government and all other power structures to stay ahead.

          So it’s not surprising to me that Asians are and will be setting themselves up to be the newest powerful class in America. They certainly have the resources.

          I also read about that story regarding Asians challenging Ivy League schools allowing “minority” students and white students with lower scores in over Asians with higher scores. And someone pointed out that it’s not simply SCORES that ivy leagues look at. They want to see students with social and community involvement as it signals a well rounded person who will be active on campus. But for the Asians its simply about scores.

          All I can say is whe Whites cease to be the formidable power structures in the USA, Black folks are finished. Other groups cannot stand Blacks and have little to zero tolerance for giving us anything. Plus there is no “white guilt” on their ends.

          Asians are very xenophobic people and Latinos are very colostruck people’s (of the worse kind) who in their countries whiteness reigns supreme and there is very little room given to those who look any parts BLACK.

          So Blacks are in a world of hurt if they don’t stop playing around NOW and get what they can before other groups start taking over.

        • Lol,
          Yes neecy. This is why i always blink when people say “People of color” because most other “colors” want blacks gone/ massively dislike them. Further as you said they do not have the same history as white people have had with blacks and so there are no requirements for the to make up for lost time.

        • Neecy,

          You are SO RIGHT, about how other groups are so prejudiced against AAs. Asians are HIGHLY ethnocentric, with a love for whiter coloring. I will say this: I have seen, from personal experience, that there ARE *some* Asian men who genuinely are attracted to BW and will fall in love with/marry an INDIVIDUAL BW. The challenge with Asians is frequently not the individual Asian but THEIR PARENTS.

          Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that AA women are going to have to learn to set themselves up to be valued by, married to, and protected by these “other” groups of men who are good quality mates. It can happen. If AA women distinguish themselves enough from the stereotypical riffraff, they can be protected by “others”–only as part of that INDIVIDUAL man’s HOUSEHOLD, mind you. AA women’s beauty is appreciated more than they realize. And, there are more people who see the struggle AA women face and respect AA women for rising above such challenges.

          I, honestly, happen to like Asians/Asian men a lot. I prefer Asian men and white men, though I am open to ALL men of quality. Here’s a primary example of why:

          I have a lady I befriended through another friend. Anyway, she just called me yesterday talking about some plans she has to address some challenges she’s facing. This lady TRULY has marginal support. Anyway, I asked about whether her son would be able to help her. She told me she asked him about it, but he hasn’t responded. Now, her son is young (18), but she sacrificed and raised him on her own, because his father died in an accident when he was little. He expects her to do things to provide for him but does not have a sense of any duty to help provide for her–particularly, AS SHE HAS no one else.

          An Asian-culture Asian son would HARDLY EVER abandon his mother’s interests in this way. Asian children ARE RAISED to believe they have a duty to take care of their parents, their family, and their community. Asian males have a mindset of taking care of/providing for family when they are YOUNG. They have that paradigm and are working towards that in their early 20s. I’ve seen many young white males who are the same way. But, that is why it’s often difficult to get involved with Asian males, because their sense of “duty” is SO STRONG. I honestly RESPECT that. I can’t get mad at others for taking care of their own, just because MY people lack the common sense to do so.

          AA women are going to have to learn to establish alignment with successful others and get whatever benefits they can from their “American” status, because that’s about all they’ve got left.

        • Also, remember that in, at least, Chinese culture the mother follows the son, meaning it is the son’s responsibility to take care of the parents when they are old.

        • Yes, Neurochick, this is true.

          My friend has a Chinese friend who was married to a Chinese guy but ended up getting divorced because of issues of him always submitting to the Chinese mother-in-law. She’s now married to a white American.

          Lol. Even ASIAN girls have issues with Asian parents.

    • “so there won’t be any AA Black block of resources for half-Black biracial children (or full-Black AA children) to draw from.”

      And, THIS is a DAMN SHAME, considering how much money AAs make/have from the sports and entertainment industries.

      • Formavitae,

        Yes, it’s absolutely SICKENING to think about how much money *generations* of AAs have squandered. That 50-year window of opportunity AAs had to get our tribe together WON’T be coming back.

        • Khadija,

          Yes. AAs are a leaking resource “faucet”. Actually, there is no “leak”, THE WHOLE DAMNED “FAUCET” came off, and everything is gushing out.

          AAs feel “happy” just to have others laughing and partying with them. If others are willing to party with us, “it’s all good”. AA males are busy trying to build EMPIRES for other people’s PROSTITUTES like the KKs and A Roses. Or, they just want to build an empire for anyone who provide children who look like anyone but themselves.

          How’d that “biracial/exotical daughter” experiment work out for you, Reggie Bush?


    • You are right when you say Hispanics are opening the immigration doors for Asians.
      LOL, Asians just walk in and continue their education and building their businesses.
      Most Asians do not protest like AAs but, they and everyone else benefit from AAs’ Civil Rights work. I have heard some Hispanics claim that this is their time. IMO, AAs move to the side because Hispanics are coming, thank you Mr. President for your immigration reforms. I totally believe if Hispanics are the leading minority group then they should be out front protesting Civil Rights issues the way AAs have protested.

  12. Thank you so much for this, OLS! It’s so good to know that I’m not crazy or alone in thinking this way. And thank you to everyone for sharing their voice. Thank you Khadija for sharing your insight here and on your blog which I also read. I’m thankful for what you do and have done.

    During this whole media fiasco, I’ve been most intrigued (and let down) by the responses I’ve seen to that woman and not really her herself. The amount of times people, especially Black people, have written or said that this WW has done more for us that we’ve done for ourselves, my heart just sank. How mislead, misguided and confused these people are!!! That makes me the most angry and sad that we have no self-awareness or self-pride. And it also sealed the nail on the coffin of the idea that I would be able to do something to help “my people” because this really showed me that most of them won’t even acknowledge the work that you do as an AABW even if you dedicate your life to it.

    Growing up on the East Coast in the 90s, I remember when Black kids/teens (some AA, but mostly non-AA) would ask me what I was (I have deep chocolate brown skin which made the question a bit strange to me) and I would say “Black” and they would either ask “Where’s your family from?” or “And what else?” to which I would reply America or “Just Black,” and I would get a blank, bored look or they would say “Oh” like they were pitying me and I would feel such deep shame.

    I’ve worked on myself spiritually, mentally and psychologically since then to get to a place where I am proud of my heritage and my ancestry as an AABW. I draw a deep sense of strength from being “just Black” now and I’m thankful. I am still working to let go of the idea that we can be something better collectively. That is where I feel the most sense of loss and sadness. I see so clearly what we could have been and sometimes want to do something now to help us as a group, but I don’t know if it’s really worth my effort and I’m realizing that it may lead to even more heartbreak.

    I do feel a sense of guilt, but I kind of want to just let go. How do you keep the spirit of your ancestors alive without having to give up your life and well-being for people who don’t seem to want to have better or won’t appreciate any of your efforts?

    • Good Morning Dorabeth,

      You said, —“I do feel a sense of guilt, but I kind of want to just let go. How do you keep the spirit of your ancestors alive without having to give up your life and well-being for people who don’t seem to want to have better or won’t appreciate any of your efforts?”—

      My thoughts: We honor our ancestors by LIVING WELL and taking FULL advantage of the modern-day options our foremothers didn’t have. To put my views in context, I described my long-term (30+ years) of personal service to Black folks in this post.

      I believe that the traditional style of service to our people that AABW engage in is no longer helpful. Not to the helpful AABW herself. And not to the Black folks that helpful AABW is trying to assist. Not only is the old style of service NOT helpful, but I feel it enables the pathologies we’ve seen on display with this NAACP imposter situation. Like other readers have said, I’m not particularly uptight about this WW scam artist herself. Her ability to pimp AA Black resources and pseudo-institutions like Howard University and the NAACP is simply AA entities’ long-term dysfunctions being taken to the zillionth degree. [The NAACP didn’t have a Black president until the then White Jewish one named Kivie Kaplan passed away in 1975.]

      In terms of service to AA Black interests, I believe the most helpful thing anyone can do is guide the AABW and girls in one’s orbit toward BWE. When you help males, the benefit stops with that male (because males generally don’t give back). When you help AABW and girls make better, SELF-actualizing choices the benefit usually extends to the other AABW and girls in that one BW’s orbit.

      Just my 2 cents in response to your question. Everybody’s mileage can (and should) vary. 🙂

      • Good Evening, Khadija!

        Thank you for your 2 cents!! I love this, “We honor our ancestors by LIVING WELL and taking FULL advantage of the modern-day options our foremothers didn’t have.” I will keep that in mind as I continue making living well the main priority in my life. I will also focus more on those AABW and girls closest to me!

    • Dorabeth,

      I’m glad you’re feeling better about your identity. I also have the experience where people assume I’m from where they’re from. Caribbeans think I am from the Caribbean. Africans think I am from Africa. West Africans think I am West African (usually), and East Africans think I am East African. Middle Eastern area people identify me with South Africa. The conclusion that I reached is that I look BLACK. It makes sense. I AM (black). Lol. What I have found is that people are usually friendlier or more comfortable around me, because they see themselves in me. Some of this animosity that exists between their group and AAs, I usually don’t deal with, as a result. Though, West Africans still frequently give me “the side eye”. Lol.

      “That is where I feel the most sense of loss and sadness. I see so clearly what we could have been and sometimes want to do something now to help us as a group, but I don’t know if it’s really worth my effort and I’m realizing that it may lead to even more heartbreak.”

      Yes. I have (had) these sentiments too. Trying to save the AA collective as “a group” is TOO GREAT a task. Don’t even try to do it, because you can’t. I just focus on doing the things that *I* can to move/point things in a positive direction for my people. I try to “set a good example”, with my lifestyle choices. I try to support things politically and socially that will elevate my group, if instituted. I show courtesy and respect in my daily dealings with others and more oppressed members of my group, because I realize many don’t respect their human dignity. I’ve done things like volunteering/tutoring, in the past. However, these days I focus heavily on working toward my goals. I am willing to financially contribute to efforts I believe in. But, I save my direct work for those I know personally, whom I want to help. Since I am working to build my infrastructure, my time is at a PREMIUM.

      Yesterday, I had two very different experiences. 1) I had an AA woman contact me sharing her plans for dealing with her current struggles. 2) I had an AA woman share with me how her business is achieving success and growing. TWO VERY DIFFERENT STORIES. TWO VERY DIFFERENT REALMS OF EXISTENCE.

      My heart goes out to the struggling AA woman. And, I am in the process of figuring out how I am going to try to help her. I really don’t want to take on the responsibility of caring/providing for another adult. And, I fear that certain efforts may turn into an intractable situation, if I’m not careful. So, I am going to ponder these things. This is my form of “community service”.

      I actually spoke to the AA business woman, because I wanted to get some information about certain things I thought may help this other AA woman. She shared info with me. Then, I asked about her life and family. This woman had success in the corporate world, left of her own volition, took care of some things for her parents, started a company with some colleagues, and IS THRIVING. So, AA women are currently doing some GREAT THINGS. As AA women, we have a choice on where we want “to fall on the spectrum”. Knowing people like her lets ME know what *I* am capable of.

      “How do you keep the spirit of your ancestors alive without having to give up your life and well-being for people who don’t seem to want to have better or won’t appreciate any of your efforts?”

      I am not the “hero” type. However, Harriet Tubman is my hero. I have ALWAYS loved her, since I was a young girl. I believe I was in the third grade when I read “Freedom Train”. I was always FASCINATED by what she accomplished and how she had the confidence AS A WOMAN to do the things she did.

      In recent years, I read another book about her. She actually underwent head surgery with no anesthesia. Now, the brain doesn’t have any nerves, but the scalp does. When she was a young slave girl, she had actually intervened in a situation protecting another slave and was hit in the head by an object, which partially crushed her skull. It wasn’t addressed for years. Finally, after all of her work saving slaves, helping with the Civil War, the side effects became too unbearable for her. So, she went to a doctor and told him she wanted him to cut her head open. lol. He asked her why. She told him. He did the surgery for her. Then, she got up and left. AMAZING.

      Every time I look at a picture of Harriet, my heart hurts, because I now how today’s AAs would regard, treat, and talk about an AA woman who looks like her. I’m just glad our ancestors aren’t around to see this.

      I bought a house, and my plan is to print off a picture of Harriet, frame it, and put it on display with other pictures of my parents and grandparents. I also will have coffee table books covering various artists, AAs, and AA history. I want to show and have my ancestry be a talking point for the guests who come, as I frequently interact with nonAAs. I also want my children to grow up in a home seeing images of their AA ancestors, particularly THE SLAVES, because the slaves made it possible for the “Rosas” and “Martins”. I’m going to teach my children about their ancestry and have them READ about it (I’m not into “passive learning”). I also intend to take them to any museums or other events that will keep them connected to their history. These are some of the methods I intend to use to “keep the spirit of my ancestors alive”.

      I also am going to stress to my children that I EXPECT them to do well for their ancestors and to be good, noble representatives/ambassadors of their people, because their ancestors DESERVE IT. AAs are not going to do this, as a group. The current group effort is to do THE EXACT OPPOSITE. So, it is something that will have to be accomplished on the individual level, and you are going to have to learn to be happy seeing your efforts be successful on the micro scale, because AAs have given up on having any substantive ethnic pride or protections on the macro scale. It is, what it is.

      • Formavitae,

        I LOVE this! Thank you for sharing your answers with me. I feel such a connection with my ancestors and I realize that I haven’t read enough about Harriet Tubman and picked up a couple of books at the library on the way home.

        You said, “Harriet was born into a certain context. Yet, she never believed what she was told about herself. She knew she was free, and she SHOWED you.”

        And that is what I love so much! The strength and deep sense of self many of our ancestors had really touches me. Their ability to completely disregard all of the messages that were thrown at them day in and day out, messages that said that they were property, animals, and only worth what you can provide for white people. To hear that and see that and still say “Nope. I am worthy of life. I am worthy of freedom. I am free!” is so powerful!

        We have it so much easier than they did and yet so many AAs are still looking to white people to tell them what to believe about themselves.

        I appreciate the reminders!

        • You’re welcome, Dorabeth (very CUTE NAME!, btw). I feel the same way. When I think of all our ancestors accomplished and provided for us, it helps me realize I can “keep goin’ on”, and I WANT to, for THEIR sakes.

          The book I recently read about Harriet is entitled, “Harriet Tubman–The Moses of Her People,” by Sarah Bradford. I actually was able to download the Kindle version FOR FREE, from Amazon. It was a very interesting read, and I was able to complete it rather quickly. I don’t own a Kindle. However, you are able to download a Kindle app to your computer, tablet, or smartphone for free.

          I need and want to read more myself. Most of my current reading is for work and school. I’m looking forward to having more time to read other things. I studied African history, in undergrad. However, I want to study AA history, now. I purchased books from the AA history syllabi at my university. I wish I had studied AA history also, while I was in undergrad. But, I’m AA and will be one for the rest of my life. And, knowing and appreciating my people/heritage more as time goes by is a priority for me.

          I’m glad you’re following such a positive path in life! KEEP IT UP!

    • People like Harriet are THE EPITOME of my belief that “YOU CANNOT SUPPRESS THE TRUTH”.

      You CANNOT enslave a FREE person, and you CANNOT “FREE” a SLAVE. (Hence Harriet. Hence Kanye.)

      Harriet was born into a certain context. Yet, she never believed what she was told about herself. She knew she was free, and she SHOWED you. Nat Turner was ALSO free, and he died to demonstrate that. I LOVE Nat Turner. Can you imagine what AAs would be, if AA men were “Nat Turners”? If I were to name my son after a BM (which I’m not), I would name him NAT TURNER.

      I went to white Christian schools, and I remember being taught about him and Harriet. Nat’s approach was taught as being the improper way to do with the situation. I never said it out loud, but when I was taught about what he did, I thought to myself, “GOOD.” Lol.

      I love the Civil Rights Movement. And, I love the Civil Rights activists. But, I LOOOOVE the slaves. Shoot. As far as I’m concerned, the Civil Rights Movement is *NOTHING* in comparison to what the slaves accomplished. THE SLAVES changed your status from owned property, like a cow or a piece of furniture, to an ACTUAL PERSON/HUMAN BEING. AAs value the Civil Rights Movement so highly, because it finally gave them social permission to sleep with the whites. [ There’s more to it THAN THAT, of course–I’m just sayin’.] I guess the slaves realized sleeping with the whites wasn’t that big of a deal, since they already were (in a different context of course). THEY KNEW “What Was Up”.

      Nevertheless, I appreciate ALL of my ancestors. I value their sacrifice. And, I love them with ALL of my heart.

      • Hi Formavitae,

        I don’t see an option to reply to your June 19th comment, so I’ll reply under this one. Thanks about my name and for the book suggestion. I will check that one out.

        I wish I had studied AA history in undergrad too. I like your idea of reading the books listed in the AA history syllabi. I will look for one for book ideas.

        And thanks for your encouragement! I’m trying my best to do my best!

        I don’t know if you’ve heard about this, but this Juneteenth it was announced that there is a project underway to digitize pre-1870 AA records so that we can connect with our ancestry. I’ve been putting together my family tree for a while and this is so exciting because usually you can’t find anything before 1870. You can even volunteer to digitize records from home. Here’s the link:

        (OLS, I hope sharing this link is ok. It is not promotional as I don’t receive anything from the company. It’s purely informational.)

        • You’re welcome, Dorabeth.

          There are so many books/sources of information available, it’s hard to filter them all. I often use syllabi to help guide me. I often review syllabi for various subjects I’m interested in but won’t be able to sign up for.

          When reviewing lists for subjects like history, political science, and other topics that aren’t “concrete”, it’s important to remember that the recommendations will be influenced by the philosophy of the department/instructor. Just some info to keep in mind, so that you can be aware that all things presented aren’t necessarily “absolutes”.

          Keep working towards optimum living and stay focused. Do your best to surround yourself with people who not only do positive things but also do advanced things and excel. You learn a lot, just by being affiliated with them. If they like/trust g,you, they will share info with you about their experiences and their field.

          I actually know a few people who own their own businesses, and they each specialize in different areas. Because we have have “friendly” and not just professional relations, they sometimes just discuss what’s going on “in general”. This gives me an opportunity to see the realities of business ownership, different challenges they face in the process, and how they deal with them. While I am in no position to go out and do what they’re doing, and though I don’t know all of the intricate details, I have learned way more about the world of business ownership than I would if I were solely depending upon my family or environment for knowledge base.

          This is why I believe it’s important for AAs (particularly those who are trying to achieve something very different from their norm) to find a way to get to know and affiliate with people in other, more successful realms–whether by attending Ivy League schools, college in general, internships, volunteer experiences, shadowing, work/training experiences. It’s important to learn about the paradigms of these successful people, so that you can understand what traits, priorities, etc. you need for development too.

          For example, if you are a poor person from a disadvantaged background, if you attend top ranked universities where successful and elite families send their children for education, you can gain insight into their world and thought process. Furthermore, you will have access to the education provided to people who will assume those positions and strata in society–IF you select your coursework/activities well and perform well. When you come from a disadvantaged background, you have to show you’re not a “loser” in other ways. THAT NEVER STOPS. Even in the career world, you will have to do the same. *I* have to do the same.

          This is only ONE example of ways in which you can gain access to other circles of influence and success. That strategy is not for everyone, nor does everyone desire it. There are other analogous tracts one can take to reap similar benefits. The business people I know, I know as a matter of “chance”. I did not seek out opportunities to connect with entrepreneurs, I have just been fortunate to do so. However, looking at things in retrospect, I can see the value in trying to make those connections.

          Stay the course, and CHOOSE WISELY.

        • Dorabeth,

          I meant to thank you for the link. So, “Thank you.”

          My family started assembling a family tree, several years ago. However, I they weren’t able to track anyone earlier than my great grandparents, via public record. Since the oldest people had died, there was no one to help with the information. 😦 I’m always happy for AAs who are able to trace their ancestry for a number of generations. That’s one thing many of us have TRULY lost and is likely one reason we don’t understand the SIGNIFICANCE and contributions of our people.

  13. This Rachel woman is nothing more than a con artist, like that Sante Kimes who killed an elderly wealthy woman because she wanted to impersonate her.

    This Rachel woman knew what she was doing. She went to Spokane, a place where I think there is only a 2% black population. No one to call her out over there. She knew that as a WW, no one would care about her, but as a BW, she could shine; people probably thought she was either light skinned or biracial; so that got her in. She got cash and prizes being a BW that she never could have received being a WW.

  14. Have you heard?

    Chica is now “black” AND “bisexual” and can relate to Caitlyn Jenner.

    Oh…. AND her black ex-husband made her do certain sexual things on video.

    Lol. You just can’t make this up.

  15. I just thought I would share a little “comedy”, as I do from time to time.

    Three years ago, I participated in a conversation at a black gossip site dealing with Keyshia Cole’s claim that she is “biracial”. I guess she had been asked to participate in “Black Girls Rock” or something. She “clarified” the situation and let people know she is “actually biracial”. Here are some of the responses people had for her. I can’t even be “mad” at this chick. Lol

    Jane • 3 years ago

    O they finally found out who her daddy was ? I’m seriously asking . Last I remember they were still looking for possibles.

    Bjohnson Jane • 3 years ago

    Totally agree. She doesn’t even know her other half and what race he is so miss me with all that bs.

    JENNY JONES!!! Bjohnson • 3 years ago



    The Guest Bjohnson • 3 years ago

    Plzzzzz. Trick babies of white johns raised entirely by their black crackhead mamas are black not biracial. Money and fame do not change the truth. Trying to play biracial when she couldn’t spell biracial five years ago. She should be thankful to come from humble beginnings to have upstanding black people want to honor her.

    stephanie Bjohnson • 2 years ago

    I just read her response to the criticism that she left on twitter, and she said that she doesn’t know what she’s mixed with, and doesn’t care to find out…if she doesn’t know what she’s mixed with, how does she know she’s mixed at all??? if she knows what race/ethnicity her dad is, shouldn’t that be the answer to what she’s mixed with?? or is it because they may not know WHO the dad is that she doesn’t know what she’s mixed with? In that case, it may be that she’s not even mixed, her dad may be black too. So that’s super confusing. It’s also confusing why she mentioned she was biracial at all, which is what I really didn’t get. I wasn’t necessarily offended by her saying that, I was more so confused, like, what are you trying to say?? And one thing that really confused me was the fact that she said she was unsure about being a part of the organization, she was skeptical at first…it’s like, what did you think the organization was about, did you think it stood for anything other than what is does, in fact, stand for, which is black female empowerment???????? that was super confusing too.

    Marier Jane • 3 years ago

    lmao.. Seriously though she does sound more confused than insulting. She sounds confused about herself, image and the Black Girls Rock organization.

    Tuesdmrsh Marier • 3 years ago

    She is insulting…mainly because she attributes light skinned with being biracial. That in itself is an ignorant thought process. I’ve known many light skinned girls with black parents and I bet you so has she. Her mother don’t know her father so her claiming to be biracial sounds stupid.


    Wepo1 Jane • 3 years ago

    LOL, she abandon ship on black women black!

    See, I said it before these mixed blacks are trouble and black people give them their riches because we want to be accepted and want to accept everyone!

    Just about every show on tv or movie is made up of primarily mixed blacks and while we called them black they don’t!

    Genetically they are no different than the majority of black Americans but they still want to be something other than black if they get the chance!

    We can’t blame her because you have black people with 2 black parents who don’t want to be identified as black!

    When she was just black she loved BET! MTV didn’t give her any airplay!

    Machelle Kwan Wepo1 • 3 years ago

    We don’t want this croacking hen or her ghettofabulous songs. She needs to worry about those voice lessons.

    Bjohnson • 3 years ago

    Her attitude is fishy anyway. It was cool for Neffe and her mama to act a fool on her show; but when the set out to get their own money she had a problem with it. Stating that they look bad. As if they didn’t look as bad on her show. Now she don’ t know if she can perform on Black girls rock because she is “BIRACIAL” or at least that’s what she thinks. Please have a seat.

    Shanae Bjohnson • 3 years ago

    I’m just trying to figure out,if she’s not ‘Black’ then why is she singing those bitter black chick spirituals geared towards the sistas?She black enough to market her music to The Black Girls Rock movement,but not black enough to participate?Gurl,BYE!Her music is the hoodrats soundtrack,99% of Koolaid colored weave wearers own one of her CD’s.This the same chick that debuted her first music video in a Cherry Cheesecake weave herself,cream cheese on top,cherries on the bottom!!And she tatted all over!Why she trynna play all high and mighty now?You got a momma on drugs,a sister poppin out kids like it’s going out of style,you had TWO shows on BET,you got a sister named ELITE,you don’t know who ya daddy is(unless you JUST found out),you grew up in Oakland and you became famous biting off Mary J. with her ‘woe is me’ music…..Gurl,you BLACK!And you HOOD as hayle!She don’t need a seat,she need a bed so her delusional behind can LAY DOWN somewhere!

    Meelah now what • 3 years ago

    I think she tried to catch herself after she said “bi-racial” and tried to clean it up. I’ve NEVER seen her given any shine at MTV, Billboard, Grammy’s, or American Music Awards so why she would balk at a black group wanting to work with her makes absolutely no sense to me. Someone started a petition already to boycott her music.

    TAMMI now what • 3 years ago

    she cried about not even getting an invite to the MTV awards one year lmao

    now what TAMMI • 3 years ago

    Well that right there says everything.. she’s biracial not black so she can just about perform at black girls rock but she is totally OK by receiving a check from her reality show on BET.. let’s see if the good folks at VH1 would have even the slightest interest in giving you a show over
    Tuesdmrsh • 3 years ago

    If you walked up to Keyshia and asked her who her father was she’d go mute because she doesn’t know. So how then can you scream from the rooftops you’re biracial when you’ve never met your daddy and your mom at the time was drug addicted Prost!tute??
    sw1 • 3 years ago

    Bastard…… the hell do think you are bi racial and you don’t know who fathered you?
    MizzBrown • 3 years ago

    Y’all leave Keysh alone. She is 34% black, 33% alcoholic, 33% crack head, 3% white, 3% Mexican, 3% Armenian, 3% Indian, 3% Puerto Rican , 3% Middle eastern, 3% panamanian, 3% Ethiopian, 3% Hindu, 3% Filipino, 3% Vietnamese, 3% Senegalese, 3% of what ever the dude is at the corner store and 3% other!

    sillyKeyshia • 3 years ago

    She’s as bi-racial as Wesley Snipes.

    Eliyahu_ben_Yehoshua7 sillyKeyshia • 3 years ago

    Absolutely no need for such a comment, now i have to clean up my juice that spewed out my mouth from laughing.
    Habitual Guest • 3 years ago

    The chemicals in the hair dye must have gone to her brain. Even if the phantom who fathered her was clear, the world will still see her as a Black woman. Perhaps Frankie and Neffe (sp) aren’t the only crazy ones.
    UmmYeahOK • 3 years ago

    Self-hate much? She must have that Dominican Syndrome. You know…the one where you deny your blackness because you speak spanish.
    Renee • 3 years ago

    She probably still don’t know who her daddy is but she do know her hair ain’t as nappy as her mama and sisters and assume her daddy is of another race.
    BlackOvariesCarryDemons • 3 years ago

    Keyshia isn’t biracial she’s part Clydesdale with them big a$5 teeth

    TOO much comedy!

  16. Earlier in this conversation, I said:

    —”I wouldn’t gamble my future on the notion that we can assume the half-Other daughters of BWE supporters will automatically be deeply loyal to AA Blacks and less destructive to AA Black interests than the half-Other children of Black fathers.” —

    Well, here’s an example of why we can’t assume AA Black women’s half-Other daughters will be less destructive to AABW’s interests than BM’s biracial daughters:

    This [Black mother- White father] broad tries to justify her choice to erase Black-looking BW from the photo spread in a Teen Vogue article about Senegalese hair twists here:

    Note that she plays dumb and pretends not to know that BW’s image (meaning the image used in American media & entertainment to represent the masses of AABW With 2 Parents) is being/has been erased and replaced with biracial chicks.

    Also note that she uses modern-day AAs’ “New Paper Bag Test Justification Mantras” (that mess about celebrating all shades of Black beauty—meanwhile the only shades of “Black” beauty shown are manila and lighter and/or with Caucasian features) to justify her choice to erase BW from a feature about a Black African hairstyle. {side eye at all of it}

    Yep, we’ve really got to get ALL living biracials OUT of our AA Black category. Pronto.

    • I think this is an example of the long-term problem of “light-skinned representation is good enough” mentality among AAs.

      I’ve had several light-skinned (TRULY light-skinned, not “tryin’ to be”–another issue) while growing up. I’ve been able to see how they think “up close and personal”. One girl with 2 AA parents was more golden-yellow in color and she seemed reluctant to acknowledge the inequality of the struggles darker girls faced. She was more like Vanessa Williams (“we’re ALL facing struggles”).

      My biracial (via her parents) friend was VERY vocal about the differences in prejudice faced based upon skin color and hair texture. She was all about affirming the beauty of darker girls with kinky hair.

      Another girl I went to HS with said she wasn’t against IRR because her mother was white, but she said black guys ALWAYS want the white girls–whereas the golden AA girl would talk about “preference”.

      I had another golden friend who preferred “light boys with light eyes”. She still does, and I don’t care. She also is honest about BM bigotry against BW. She will FLAT OUT AGREE. She also liked brown skinned boys and was skipped over for white girls.

      So, light skinned people are a mixed bag. I only deal with the ones who acknowledge the prejudice darker BW face. And, from what I see, there are a good number of light skinned boys who find brown skinned girls attractive, though many darker skinned males resent them.

      This is a mess that is exacerbated by whites increasing the disparity in the way in which they distribute oppression. As I learned from African history and political science, nonwhites don’t have a problem with discrimination/racism, they only have a problem being subjected to it. They don’t mind inflicting it upon others. This awareness really presents a challenge for me and the way in which I think about/want to promote nonwhites. I still haven’t resolved this.

      • ” nonwhites don’t have a problem with discrimination/racism, they only have a problem being subjected to it. They don’t mind inflicting it upon others. This awareness really presents a challenge for me and the way in which I think about/want to promote nonwhites. I still haven’t resolved this.”

        Even though I’m young I have come to this painful realization. Coming to this realization is the reason why I will only solely and primarily focus on ME, MYSELF, AND I! This is also resonates with the way bm treat bw. NO ONE wants to be at the bottom of the barrel. For some to be at the top, others have to be at the bottom. That is human nature. It is what it is. I will never understand why Blacks advocate for other races when people rarely go the same distance for us.

        • Moriah,

          I’m glad you came to this conclusion, and I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND. I studied African history AFTER I completed my political science coursework, and it broke my heart–LITERALLY. I needed that. And, my thought process will never be the same.

          I used to think bigotry etc. was the result of a lack of understanding/familiarity/awareness. I now realize people know EXACTLY what they’re doing. IT’S A CHOICE. I also have ceased to get “bent out of shape” over discrimination others face. My question to them is “Who are YOU discriminating against?” And ” Have you addressed THAT?”

          AAs need to stop trying to be “champions” for all people and things. Some of these people appreciate us, but most use us for what they can get, then move on. But, AAs (BM) are generally content if they can “sex”/”breed” with someone different. That’s all they truly want–to no longer be “AAs”. It is what it is.

        • @Moriah and @ Formavitae

          LOl yes! This is so true. The job i work at primarily serves “WOC” color. Actually one of the managers is and Asian American lady
          and I always get a good chuckle at the obvious discrimation that is apparent towards the BW clients while the WW clients are basically put on a pedestal. Lol and that’s why I don’t believe in the sisterhood of so called “women of color”

        • OLS,

          AAs truly are misguided in their thinking that all “people of color” are “in the same ship”. This is why they can be so easily manipulated and misused. I actually wanted to add a post below sharing a little about what I’ve learned about culture over the years to help AAs understand the distinction between how they view “culture” and what culture means to many other people in the world. If AAs could get that, I believe their expectations would change.

  17. Khadija, Yep, this biracial editor did the same-old, same-old. Aside from a brief, wonderful period during the “Black is Beautiful” days in the 60s and 70s, this has been the standard operating procedure of AAs (and similarly situated blacks). AAs have always preferred the lighter, more Euro looking people among us. I saw early in life how black girls/women who had a lesser negro phenotypes or more Euro looks and hair were always chosen by blacks in general to be the display pieces (star of the class play, class president, homecoming queens, wives of prominent black men). So, what’s going on now is nothing new. The only difference now that I see is that so many AAs have given the green light to everybody or made it the thing-to-do for everybody to be openly hateful towards black women who have “negro” looks or what is euphemistically referred to as “unambiguously black” or UB looks.

    Aside from that, what this biracial woman did is a perfect example of how ANYONE–aside from a tiny percent of people on earth (and that tiny percent obviously includes too many AA women) is going to do what’s in THEIR best interest to do for themselves and THEIR offspring and in many cases, for others in THEIR identity group. Whiter-skinned biracial black women know they have certain advantages (exotic looks to whites, or the preferred looks to black men), so of course, they’re going to do all they can to milk those advantages. This is an elementary fact of life. Most people just assume that others are operating with this fact of life uppermost in their mind. I am actually suspicious of anyone who’d be willing to put themselves at a disadvantage in order to give me an advantage when it comes to the type of key surviving and thriving issues that are being discussed here. I wouldn’t trust them even if they did it. LOL

    • I was once told in a lecture at the Urban League that the ovement to promote wearing natural hair was costing hair care companies too much money. So, what they did was present the Afro as “a hairstyle” which they could then change (an so forth). I don’t know how blacks are supposed to get past this, when so many are willing/eager to sell out their own.

      Contrast this with Indian Brahmin youth who are willing to engage in self-immolation to protest actions they believe desecrate their caste and religion. Honestly, AAs have a lot to learn about TRUE ethnic pride. If you observe people in Asia and the Middle East, they are willing to CUT OFF (PHYSICALLY KILL) those whom they believe ruin the honor of their people. The typical modern AA is only concerned with comfort and entertainment. They have NO CLUE about ethnic identification or preservation.

  18. A lot of what continues to plague AA women falls under the heading of too many of them expecting life and people to be FAIR to them. Smh. I have a positive attitude about life but I’ve never expected life to be fair. I knew I had to make life be as fair to me as possible. For ex., I know I have the phenotype of a “negro” woman or what’s called these days an “unambiguously black” woman. Lol I have UB looks, y’all. Lol But it was easier looking like a negro woman when I was a young woman because looking UB was actually celebrated during parts of the 60s, 70s and 80s. So, I’ve always viewed my looks in a positive way or at least, never negatively. Based on how men view women, I have average looks and I figured out early, various ways to accentuate my looks and make myself be as physically, socially, and intellectually appealing as possible to the type of men I prefer. For ex., I have a streamlined body structure (slim looking) and I decided to maintain it, which is actually easy to do through diet and a fitness regimen or lifestyle choices. Virtually ALL black women could do the same. My rear end is big enough, but I never had a “big” butt. A big butt only comes in handy if you’re trying to catch the eye of certain black men. *Big yawn*.

    On the marrying well front, an issue I see in why some women haven’t been able to marry comfortably is the “type” of man some of them are attracted to or just have to have. My ex-husband was the epitome of what’s called these days: the “alpha” man– big personality, big education, big income, influential network, etc., but I always liked a variety of types of men, including some of the so-called “betas” and “omegas.” For me, it all depends on a wide variety of factors. I don’t think I’m nearly as picky as a lot of AA women I’ve talked with, but I’ve always had a quality man in my life who I liked and who liked me.

    But mostly what I’ve experienced too much during this BWE journey –based on some of the comments on various sites and the many emails I’ve received is that way too many AA women continue to cling to large chunks of a questionable mentality, and they refuse to let go of their often problematic family members and crippling social circle but still claim they want to marry well or live well. Not going to happen.

    • THEIR best interest to do for themselves and THEIR offspring and in many cases, for others in THEIR identity group..


      A lot of what continues to plague AA women falls under the heading of too many of them expecting life and people to be FAIR to them.

      Not only AA women but black women all around the world. I used to be just like this. I’m starting to question why are we BW the only group that thinks this way??? Where does this come and stem from?? I’m personally still working on this and getting MUCH better. We think if we’re nice to people, people will be nice back to us.

      • Moriah. I don’t know how prevalent the fairness notion is among non-AA black women of certain ages, but online, this notion is running as the subtext in just about every discussion that younger black women engage in, no matter what. So, as you say, this has infected a lot of y’all wherever you’re from. This expectation leads to so much anger, disappointment, woundedness and despair. Things have really changed! For ex., why would black women even expect for white-skinned bi-racial women to be fair or offer reciprocity, since they don’t have to do it? I personally would never, ever expect it. Therefore, I would only do whatever for them IF I could be virtually 100% sure that I’d get what I needed from them in return. Why? It’s because I know I can’t afford to give away freebies. Self-preservation. So, in this current environment where the plum opportunities have gotten very scarce, I would quietly work to eliminate them as my competition along with any other competitors and without broadcasting what I’m doing. That’s the way the world works. This biracial beauty editor is doing exactly that to UB women who look like me. I even expect her to do that. So I wouldn’t even get upset about this EXCEPT for the fact that so many UB women just don’t GET IT and apparently need to be told what to do!

        I thought about this today. This expectation of fairness is an alien notion to me.Maybe that’s why I knew I had to exert myself more in “creative” lol ways earlier in life to wring fairness out of life for myself and my children. Of the AA women I mingle with offline who are in my age category over 55, they think similarly to me about this. Of the non-AA black women I know and mingle with offline as well as white and other women, I also don’t detect this fairness notion. Maybe that’s because those women come from cultural systems that do provide lots more reciprocity. I’ve only encountered this notion online, among many of y’all young’uns. Offline, I don’t mingle with women your age, so I don’t know how they’d view this.

        There is an exception though: AA churchgoing women of my age do think that someone is going to help them just because they’ve given so much . They give their all to their church and pastor and expect reciprocity which they rarely get. I over hear their conversations sometimes. I notice that they won’t ask for, let alone demand help from the pastor or other members at their church when they need it. Some of them are really in pain about that but feel guilty about expecting reciprocity since they get ridiculed and have been taught to give more than they receive. That doesn’t stop them from being mad as hell though about being shortchanged and they then INTERNALIZE the anger or act out in other ways.

        • That’s because the church teaches them to give to the church, but to expect their reciprocity “from god”. It’s actually the biggest swindle going and if religion weren’t backing it, it probably would be considered fraud.

        • I’m Christian and was “raised in the church”. I really do LOVE the teachings of Jesus Christ, and that’s the ONLY reason I’m Christian. However, even from childhood I was aware of the unfair burdens and challenges AA women faced. So, I knew I,had to make/avoid certain choices if I wanted a good life.

          For, example. I am actually VERY TRADITIONAL. I believe the man should take care of,the household and the woman should stay at home and raise the children (ideally). I also believ the man should be the head of the family. But, HOW is this supposed to work, if the man won’t work? HOW is a woman with resources supposed to submit to a man who has none and no knowledge base of trustworthiness to manage this?
          HOW is a woman supposed to “submit” to a man who I inconsiderate to her needs? HOW is woman supposed to “follow” a man who is dependent upon her for survival?

          I’ve thought about these things since I was very young. So, though I was young and Christian, I was still very practical about the plight of women. Additionally, I never believed you could (afford to) follow a man/Pastor “blindly”. Believe me, my views have presented me with challenges in obtaining “acceptance”.

          I think a real challenge may be that the advancement/acceptance of BW in global arena may conflict with the needs/requirements of ethnic preservation. People with no ethnic pride have no problems neglecting the needs of their group. But, people WITH ethnic pride, cannot feel comfortable/sit idly by, while their ethnic group is being gutted and robbed. This may be a challenge some of us will carry to the grave, because while we look forward to making progress into the future, we still CHERISH our past. I don’t know.

    • Evia you said,

      A lot of what continues to plague AA women falls under the heading of too many of them expecting life and people to be FAIR to them. Smh. I have a positive attitude about life but I’ve never expected life to be fair. I knew I had to make life be as fair to me as possible.

      I actually agree and notice this more and more for a LOT of black women that grew up in my generation whichs is now 33-Under. I notice it in their interactions in social media, I notice it when talking about government policies, racism/sexism etc. This sort of delusional idea that life is going to be fair to them” is quite stunning but even more so coming from AAbw who tend to always get screwed over. you’d think that black women would learn but as time goes on I’m noticing this entitlement more and more. And there is no other word to use except entitlement. Entitlement in believing that people/things/organizations are going to simply be NICE to them and GIVE them what they want at the expense of themselves simply because they demand it. Funnily enough this is exactly what my next post is about because at this point is too obvious to ignore. Further re what you said about black women having questionable mentalities I noticed this from some black women on a facebook page that called for accountability for a black couple getting married/ having a chiild yet having to live with parents bercause he was a cashier and she was a paralegal. Basically when the FB proprieter suggested they move to a cheaper area than NY all the questionable bw came out to talk about how she was not helping or offering viaable solutions. SMH so many black women keep supporting this questionable behavior and feel they are entitled to suck of their families teat for as long as they have resources to give further crippling EVERYONE.

      • OLS,

        You mentioned: —“Further re what you said about black women having questionable mentalities I noticed this from some black women on a facebook page that called for accountability for a black couple getting married/ having a chiild yet having to live with parents bercause he was a cashier and she was a paralegal. Basically when the FB proprieter suggested they move to a cheaper area than NY all the questionable bw came out to talk about how she was not helping or offering viaable solutions. SMH so many black women keep supporting this questionable behavior and feel they are entitled to suck of their families teat for as long as they have resources to give further crippling EVERYONE.”—

        Guurl, I saw that particular FB discussion—those enraged BW dissenters are cray-zee! As in “Crazy For Real Crazy.” {catching the vapors and clutching my pearls in horror at the dissenting comments}

        Frankly, I think a lot of “hit dogs” were hollering in that discussion. Some of them were so enraged at the idea of applying common sense possible solutions (oh, such as find a job in—and relocating to—an area that has a less expensive cost of living) to that couple’s dire straits that they kept sending in angry comments days later. It made me wonder what kind of similarly life-crippling choices those enraged dissenters have probably made.

        And the page owner was extremely diplomatic about it all—she walked on eggshells and refrained from asking the obvious questions which are: What grown, working woman in her right mind marries a man who is a grocery store bagger? What grown, working woman in her right mind has a baby by a grocery store bagger? What grown, working woman in her right mind thinks she’s going to build a stable married life and feed a child with a husband who is a grocery store bagger? ALL of this is crazy as heck. I can see a teenage girl making a series of silly, life-crippling choices like these choices. But not somebody who’s old enough to be a paralegal.

        Anyhoo, I was amazed at all the extreme mental gymnastics the crazed dissenters had to do in order to pretend that this couple’s DIRE straits were the result of something other than making a series of idiotic choices. It was surreal . . . and it said a LOT about the state of many BW’s mindsets. {smh}

      • “{catching the vapors and clutching my pearls in horror at the dissenting comments}”

        LOL. I’M DYING (with laughter, of course, no need to “call a code” lol– terminology used when CPR and other lifesaving measures must be immediately implemented to save a dying patient, for those who don’t know)

        But, seriously, I think AAs have some major “processing” issues. I’m just going to list a few random ones that “tick me off”:

        – For example, they believe if certain policies are adopted/implemented, the problems they are meant to address will immediately/completely go away.

        Uh. No. Politics doesn’t work like that. And, if they don’t want the policy to have any impact, they won’t provide any funding for its implementation.

        – Life costs money. LIVING costs money. NO. You can’t get food stamps, section 8, Medicaid, welfare, without someone PAYING FOR IT. WHY did you just have that baby, or 2, or 3, when you haven’t even finished high school, don’t have a job, and saw your momma and others STRUGGLIN’ to raise you in poverty?

        -YES, I want to be a mother and have a family. That’s why I got an education and established a career BEFORE having children. Simply having children DOES NOT mean you “love kids” or “want to be a parent”.

        -You can have a baby with/marry whomever you want, for whatever reason, just be ready to “pay the bills”.

        -NO, you can’t vote Democrats into office then GET MAD when “gay marriage” is supported/promoted.

        -Not all people are going to live “THE LIFE”. If you broke, GET READY TO WORK. WHY you tryin’ to live with the “rich folks” when you know you can’t afford “they” taxes. GET OVER YA’SELF. You TOO BROKE for that.

        • Lol, you’d think from the way those people responded in that FB comment section that they’d JUST been dropped off on planet earth and simply realized that Life costs money. There were actually some complaining about having to move out of state to find a job because then they wouldn’t have “family support”. Lol which we all know for a LOT of these people means a built in babysitter and free rent. The way some of those women expected to simply run their families into the ground in the name of a “Support system’ well it had me “clutching my pearls” as khadija said. Don’t they realize that if they drag their families down NOBODY can help anyone and everyone will be stuck in the same position.

        • OLS,

          YES. It’s sad that so many AAs these days can’t seem to comprehend the basic realities of living. This type of NON-thinking is being perpetuated by the actions of many well-meaning AAs who are reluctant to see others suffer. My mother for example. I can think of one example and one recent situation with this nonsense.

          One of my male cousins has a kid or two with this woman. This woman has children by other men also. Anyway, years ago, SHE FINALLY allowed her children to start having contact with us. My mom is eager to promote family ties and wants to share love with everybody. So, she bought these kids (not just my cousin’s) A LOT of nice gifts and other things they needed for Christmas, because their mother was poor. Their mom was too lazy to come get the gifts, so my mother eventually took them to her. The children started spending more time with us. My mom gave other things they needed (furniture, etc) to help. But, this woman had ANOTHER baby she couldn’t afford. WHY?!? This type of thing illustrates how “trying to help” someone doesn’t always lead to them making wiser decisions with their opportunities.

          Recently, a high-school aged sibling of a different cousin’s child had a baby. She may have 2 or 3, now. I can’t remember, because I don’t interact with them very much. But, she was doing this before graduating (I think she recently graduated). She has her own apartment, I believe. But, that cycle of dependency has already started. I’m sure she probably utilizes various forms of government aid for support. THESE THINGS ARE GOING AWAY. When are people going to GET that and stop trying to establish their futures on foundations that are vanishing?

          Someone I know told me her high school son just had a baby with a 15 year old 10th grader.

          ALL of these people ARE POOR–“barely got a roof over their heads” poor.


  19. @ OLS–re:

    “This sort of delusional idea that life is going to be fair to them” is quite stunning but even more so coming from AAbw who tend to always get screwed over. you’d think that black women would learn but as time goes on I’m noticing this entitlement more and more. And there is no other word to use except entitlement. Entitlement in believing that people/things/organizations are going to simply be NICE to them and GIVE them what they want at the expense of themselves simply because they demand it.”


    Yes, as you say, this ‘entitlement to fairness and niceness’ notion is like a mass hallucination they’re having. It would be interesting to find out WHAT factors or forces intersected and WHEN to create this bizarre but apparently prevalent notion.

  20. Regarding black women putting themselves first at the expense of their biracial daughters. I’ve thought about the arguments against and I couldn’t figure out why there was something wrong with them. Then I realized, for the people who say that if BW do such and such they will harm their biracial daughters, i realized this was cicular logic. Some women are saying that black women should allow bi-racial black women to speak for the whole of AA women because they are women too and to not let them do this would be to harm their daughters. THIS in itself is circular logic. as it stands the image of AA american black women is… well… lets just say, not as high as i could be in comparison to other races of women. As it stands id does nothing to help the numbers of Biracial black women to identify as fully black simply because of the stereotypes that are associated with being said AA american women. *and we all know what they are*

    The reason I had such a problem with the stated ideas of people who believe that AA bw would be shutting their daughters out of their privileges (and I’ll probably write a post on this later on) is because this is similar to the argument that AA women will be hurting their children if they don’t support the black male civil rights movment or the white female civil rights movement. Its actually funny now that I think about it because this is what I’ve said before about privilege and how it concerns black women:

    There are a few flaws with the logic as it stands for a number of reasons.
    1. I’ve pointed out from books like “All the wommen are white all the blacks are men” and Kimberle Crenshaws work on intersectionality that privilege only works in certain ways. For example Black men and white women are so busy worrying about resources for THEMSELVES and only themselves that they don’t (and probably don’t care to notice) that if they made sure that black WOMEN were protected under certain protections under laws and in their movements THEY would automatically be covered because they are either black or a woman.
    2 Unfortunately the majority of the world doesn’t seem to realize/ want to realize that this is how privilege works
    3. Even though they would be covered if black women were to have protections in place for being black AND a woman if laws/protections and privileges are made from the point of view of either black MEN or white women that means black women are automatically shut out of both. BECAUSE they are black or they are a woman.
    4. and here is the point I’m trying to make regarding black women and their offspring who may be bi-racial.It does Black american women no good to hope their children (bi-racial or not) are going to be protected/ have resources by the way the system is now. For a few reasons:
    A. As it stands, as I said before full black american women’s reputation/ is largely being held hostage by certain people aiming to run it into the ground. At THIS current point in time it does your children/ future children no good to be able to identify as FULL black. And if we are being honest might actually harm.
    B. And this is what I’ve said before. If black women procured resources for THEMSELVES they would automatically be extended to their CHILDREN if they were to identify to the world as Black women. That can ONLY happen if black women were to build up their resources BEFORE they allowed masses of Bi-Racial black women (who as one reader said are mostly the children of WW) to take whatever benefits they can get from the being seen as full AA.
    C. As I said before It doesn’t work the opposite way. While your bi-racial children can benefit from black women who have procured resources and other opportunities it does NOT currently work in the opposite way. Meaning black women do not get anything from Bi-Racial women being seen as the norm for BW.
    D. As it stands without securing for YOURSELF as a full black women FIRST you are actually doing more harm than good.

    I’m sure i have more thoughts and I’ll probably right a post soon, since a lot of that might have been unintelligible but i hope most of you get my drift. This was really bothering me until I had that light bulb moment because i don’t think people notice the circular logic.
    The same circular logic by shady White people who claim that you can’t play the race goalkeeper on who calls themselves black because that’s racist but STILL won’t accept that BiRacial people are white. Lol it just makes no sense.

    not only does ensuring YOUR resources first automatically help your biracial daughters but it also helps the number of full black women who still… you know.. exist. Because in actuality just because bi-racial children of black women exist does NOT mean that there are not also FULL black girls being born today. This way you would be helping both bi-racial and full black women. The way other people present would ONLY help bi-racial black women.

    • This so much! I hope you write a post about this, because this line of reasoning has been so baffling to me. There are 4 things that bother me about this:

      1. There seems to be this line of thought that acknowledging that a biracial person is biracial and not fully either race/ethnicity is wrong or hurtful in some way. I’ve seen so many people lately get upset and defensive when this is just basic genetics and pure fact. This isn’t an insult, we are not doing something to biracial people by pointing it out. It just is. There is nothing to be ashamed of or to feel less than by and if anyone does feel less than, they need to do some more inner work to accept this part of their identity.

      2. Whenever it is brought up that black women with two fully black parents notice our erasure and want to take steps to preserve our image, sense of place and power as fully black women, which includes making it clear that biracial women don’t fully represent us, the attention gets dragged away to biracial women’s needs and hurts. Note that this is not our whole concern as black women, this is just one part of it, but it’s one of the ones that seems to be so controversial. 

      3. Some of these ramblings are reminiscent of when black women talk about issues that affect them and a white woman comes into the conversation saying “But I’m a woman too!.” Yeah, great, good for you. This is not your place to work through that though. 

      4. By assuming that acknowledging that someone is biracial and not fully black (or whatever races their parents are), it seems like people think we’re saying that biracial women can go be miserable in the corner all alone with no support for their whole lives. I think that might be where the distress comes from when black women make that distinction and then play the “think of the kids” game. I don’t think any black woman who is taking a stand for her identity and personhood and has a half black child will do that while neglecting the needs of her child. That’s like saying that a mother stops being a person once she has a child. They also forget that right now there are still many fully black girls and teens who need support too and will not benefit from being pushed aside so that biracial women can claim that they are fully black. No one is saying think of those children! They also forget that those same biracial women they worry about will likely be fine. 

      There is nothing wrong with being biracial, just like there is nothing wrong with being black. It’s just part of who you are.

    • OLS,

      You’ve raised some EXCELLENT POINTS. I enjoy reading your commentary on “intersectionality”, because it encourages looking at issues from a different lens that frequently isn’t considered. It gives me an additional way to look at things.

      Pertaining to your comments, 1-3, something I thought of was the following. I think the reason BM and WW don’t acknowledge they would be covered by protecting the interests of BW is because both groups actually want to maintain the disparities that exist between them and BW. BM, in all honesty, are not interested in BW having equality. And, if AAs were honest, the cultural thinking process of blacks does not view women as equal to men, though blacks have no problem making women responsible for the SAME WORKLOAD as men. Furthermore, WW want to maintain their privileged status relative to “other” women. So, few of them are going to work to eradicate race-based disparities. Their primary focus is “sex”, because it allows other inequalities “to slide”.

      This discussion re BW and their bi-racial daughters is one in which I have never considered SO INTENTLY, until now. I believe that is because the social and political dynamic changes are no longer “under the surface” but rather “in your face”. Another comment I want to add below will also touch on this.

      Before I start, a few things influencing my opinion are the following. I’ve felt the hurts, cried the tears of being rejected for not being white. I’ve seen light-skinned girls suffer similar hurts and rejections for not being white. I’ve seen half-blacks suffer similar pains for not being white (rejection from BM). My half-black friend, I mentioned above, told me that light-skinned girls don’t like to acknowledge the privilege they receive for being light because “it hurts” (to acknowledge that your color/hair is the only reason you’re being treated a certain way). My family is one of light and dark people who married each other. They have not ever, nor do they, treat or regard each other differently because of color. For that I am thankful.

      Ok. Compiling my thoughts is challenging, because I am still trying to process them. I think AA women have identified a legitimate set of issues–the consequences of “biracial” privilege without DEFINITIVE “biracial” allegiance. I believe everyone has given excellent recommendations. My recommendations are based upon my experience with addressing disappointments/discouragement while trying to make progress.

      I honestly think AA women (AAW) need to expend their focus and energies carefully. I’m ALREADY wordy, so I’m going to try to “cut to the chase”.

      AAW need to learn how to AFFECT what they need without always having to do “heavy lifting”. For example, changing Hollywood practice is “heavy lifting”. Changing benefits from “blackish” to “AA” is “heavy lifting”. Getting AAs to start promoting “blacks” instead of “blackish” is “heavy lifting”. Now, I don’t recommend not supporting these things when opportunities arise. However, I think the bulk of AAW’s efforts should be focused elsewhere.

      AAW need to focus on self-advancement/self-improvement. This is what I’m suggesting. AAW concern regarding how they are viewed versus how “biracials” are viewed can be addressed in alternative ways.

      To me, many “biracials” (BR–I’m tired of using my quotation marks–lol) work hard to profit from their appeal to AAM. What does this frequently mean? Stripping, ho-ing, being a “video queen”, being a “bad bytch”, clubbing, twerking, being a “good hair”-making baby mama machine, etc. And, the public KNOWS AAM prefer these types of women. THAT ALONE, turns other segments of men off. Say for example, doctors, engineers, scientists, men looking to raise a family–basically, any man not looking for “a play thing”.

      If AAW focused on living healthy lifestyles, pursuing challenging/prosperous/forward careers, having balanced personal habits and communication styles, increasing wealth, basically NOT being what the “typical” AAM is after, they would attract people interested in the same. Others would notice the difference and they would begin to distinguish AAW from BR, in a POSITIVE way, without AAW having to expend much additional effort on anything/anyone outside of themselves.

      I don’t watch much television, but have you noticed how more East Indians are being featured on mainstream tv shows? I haven’t noticed any particular “social movement” or “push” for them to be accepted or incorporated. What’s happening? INDIANS ARE RISING IN INTELLECTUAL, ECONOMIC, AND SOCIAL PROMINENCE, AND “THE MAINSTREAM” (*cough*, *cough*) IS TRYING TO TAP INTO THAT RESOURCE FLOW.

      If AAW can be smart and support opportunities that rectify the injustices against them (without “over-expenditure”) THAT’S GREAT. But, AAW need to see how NOT being what AAM prefer ACTUALLY works to their advantage. For example, I’ve seen several nice-looking white guys out at the supermarket, in relationships with (so-called) “basic”-looking AAW who would never make the “video cut”. However, these white guys are comfortable and content being in relationships with them and comfortable being seen in public with them.

      This particular post is LONG ENOUGH. Lol

      • —But, AAW need to see how NOT being what AAM prefer ACTUALLY works to their advantage.—

        You bring up an excellent point. A friend and I used to call that cultivating a look that appeals to negroes, but we used … different words if you catch my drift. And yes, you’re so right. No shade to anyone who naturally has that body, but you can see a lot of this going on with the fat transfer plastic surgery that is becoming all the rage. Some of these “celebrities” and regular women have even taken it so far as to augment themselves into shapes purely serve as spectacle.

        But it’s not just that, it’s everything from head to toe. There is NO benefit to cultivating the physical appearance that’s “negro bait” because it sends far too many negative signals about everything else, and doesn’t result in AAW finding/marrying a high quality mate. I think a lot of AAW have gotten “sucked into” doing it to “compete” with the “exotics” but won’t fare well in the long run.

  21. —-Some women are saying that black women should allow bi-racial black women to speak for the whole of AA women because they are women too and to not let them do this would be to harm their daughters. —

    I just want to clarify my position because I feel as though this is addressing some of my comments but I want to step in before this straw man gets out of hand.

    Let me make my comments clear:

    By no means am I insinuating or even outright saying that biracial women should speak for fully-black AA women. In short, if you’re referring to me, I did not say/write this.

    What I am saying is this:

    1- This has not been an issue that has needed to be addressed by BW as BW only date/mate interracially at single digit percentages. Therefore, there hasn’t been a large group of BW raising biracial daughters.
    2- Responsible mothers work for the benefit of their children, I think on that we can all agree.
    3- As more BW mate/marry interracially this will be come an issue.

    This is not about privileges, it is about really… telling a woman that she should work for the benefit of a collective that her offspring cannot be a part of.

    The consensus is effectively saying “secure your resources first, and work towards the betterment of black women, but since the numbers aren’t on your side, you probably will have to marry outside of the race if you want a stable marriage in which to have children, but if you have a child, they aren’t included in this group because it only includes blacks with black parents.”

    The best analogy I can think of (and it might not be a good one) is that I need an education. I get an education (to secure my resources) and then I’m asked to contribute as an alum and help improve my alma mater (help the group) but my children can’t attend.

    Now if we are to flip this. Other groups work to ensure the inclusion of their children into whatever groups and privileges are available to them. If their children cannot participate/benefit, they aren’t putting effort into it. You’ll see a mother volunteering at a school/program before her children are born, for the benefit of being able to enroll them when they are ready. You tell her that her children can’t be a part of the club. She’s gone. Not putting effort into it.

    Again, I’m not referring to who “represents” the race or who is seen as the “face” of the collective.

    I’m not saying this to imply that BW should allow biracial women to be the face for black women, or to overtake the image of fully-black black women. I’m not even suggesting that BW align with biracial black women. I’m just pointing out that as more start to give birth to biracial children, things are going to get sticky.

    • Gina, I wasn’t referring to you at all. There have been a lot of comments so I sort of forgot what you had posted before hand. Sorry. I’m generally speaking about what I hear when I’m AWAY from this post and In GENERAL. That was in no way meant to bring up you personally or any other women whose commented specifically sorry if it seemed that way. But generally what I hear on line. I have more comments but i’m at work and i’ll respond to them when I get home. 🙂

    • Gina,

      You said: —“This is not about privileges, it is about really… telling a woman that she should work for the benefit of a collective that her offspring cannot be a part of.”—

      Respectfully, it seems to me that you’re making this sound harder than it has to be. I’m happy you’re raising this particular point because it forces us all to think through some previously unexplored, unfamiliar, path-less-traveled mental territory. Here are my thoughts about this:

      (1) On a patriarchal planet, in terms of what resources they take from to give to their offspring, most married women look to take from their husband’s resources and from HIS “tribe’s” resources first and foremost. And this is exactly what nonblack women do when they marry BM. They do everything they can to direct Black folks’ [meager] resources toward their offspring.

      (2) Nonblack women who marry BM ALSO use that Black husband’s resources to support their lily-White or Asian or whatever nonblack tribe that their half-Black children can NEVER truly be a member of.

      One prominent example of this is what Reginald Lewis’ Filipino wife did with HIS resources: Filipino Asian Mrs. Lewis spent his money to open a college in her home country of the Philippines. She did this to benefit her Filipino “tribe of origin.” Mrs. Reginald Lewis spent big money to support her Filipino people despite the fact that HER half-Black children are NOT (and will most likely never be) accepted or treated or recognized as “real” Filipinos by other Filipinos.

      So the Filipino Mrs. Lewis worked and spent BIG MONEY “for the benefit of a collective that her offspring cannot be a part of.”!! She spent a lot of money for the benefit of a Filipino collective that her half-Black offspring cannot be a part of.

      It occurs to me that as a collective, AA women are probably not used to the idea of being able to draw from OTHER folks’ resources to prop up our children. Collectively, we’ve always been forced to play the man’s role of being the primary source of resources for our offspring. Or, to put it bluntly, we only think of pimping other BW for resources to support our aspirations for our offspring. It can be hard to think outside that box when that’s all we’ve been doing collectively. [= depending on our own resources or resources created by other BW in order to support our children’s aspirations]

      The ability to—and PREFERENCE for—drawing from outside your own women’s circle of resources is one of the primary benefits of effectively using “the female [marriage] card.” Nonblack women do this while also supporting the girls that are coming behind them from their own ethnic/racial group. AA women can also do this while supporting the AA Black girls that will come behind us.

      • I appreciate your response. I’m not denying that the wife draws from the husband’s resources. However:

        When BM marry out, they make not only their resources, but also some community resources available to their non black wife. This is done through the foolish decisions of black women, as you wrote in your classic post about letting Becky, Mei Ling, etc., indirectly pimp black women. As a group black women seem far too eager to give away whatever resources they have to any group (and I do realize the irony here, I’ll get to that).

        When a BW marries a non black man, she doesn’t NECESSARILY have some COMMUNITY resources available to her vis-a-vis her husband. That all really depends, so her buck stops, most often, at the husband and possibly his immediate family (though not always because it seems a fair number of BW marry into families that oppose their IR, but that’s a whole other can of worms). So, in that sense, a BW has to be “greedy” not in an unethical way, but in an “I’m going to take everything I can get for the benefit of my offspring” kind of way.

        And asking BW to support the progression of BW at the exclusion of biracial black offspring will end up causing some conflicts with that. And I think there are some black women now, raising biracial children now, that are coming into conflict with that.

        • “And asking BW to support the progression of BW at the exclusion of biracial black offspring will end up causing some conflicts with that. ”

          Gina you’re making this harder than what it seems to be. I see white women AND asian women (even in my own family) who have half black daughters and still seem to be able to support their company using their black husbands resource’s.. For example, on instagram i see MANY white and asian women who are creating clothing lines. Guess which models their using? White and asian little girls even though they are aware their daughters look nothing like that! In fact, I’m surprised no one has brought this up. I’ve noticed when white women half black daughters they behave subconsciously that their daughters are fully white blonde hair blue eyed, thus the reason why so many of them -I hate to say – are tragic mulattos! I see it in my own family!

        • With all due respect, Moriah, I am NOT making this harder than it has to be. This isn’t an issue YET. It isn’t happening in large numbers yet. BW marrying out is still hovering around 9-ish percent. While it’s fine to have theoretical solutions and projections of other races’ of women’s behavior/practices onto black women, but when it really starts to play out and actually happen, there will be conflicts (IMO). We’ll just have to wait and see.

        • Gina,
          I think that this would be an issue for black women who didn’t marry WELL. Which is what evia, faith and khadija are always talking about. For any children i would have I would make sure my husband would be able to provide for them so having to look for scraps in the “black community” wouldn’t have to be an issue. I think that is the solution and that is what is sometimes forgotten as while there is a trend of dating OUT there is alot of emphasis by some to simply date any Dead beat, can’t provide non black man they can find and call that “thriving” simply because he’s not black. I would say as evia said that you could still make sure you support other full black women, like khadija is pointing out AW do, but use your husbands resources for any biracial children you might have. As she said thats what most women do.

        • Actually a study was just realized by Pew Research, black women’s interracial marriage is at 12%.

        • Oh, and truth be told I don’t believe we’ll see high numbers of bw marry wm here in the United States. I may be wrong because of course no one can predict the future but I don’t believe bw’s interracial marriage rate will ever be as high as bm’s here in America. Abroad -yes. Here- no. Very few bw here in America are going to make it. It is what it is.

        • Moriah, Truth be told I don’t believe this either. Seeing the comments on that facebook page showed that a LOT of black women won’t make it/ won’t try and make any changes until its too late. And I’m sure a lot of women are still going to die searching for a black man. SMH honestly while i feel like more black women may start dating and those numbers will rise (they already have as you pointed out.) I do not believe it will ever be all that high simply because a lot of black women are marie antoinettes as evia would say.

        • –I think that this would be an issue for black women who didn’t marry WELL… I would make sure my husband would be able to provide for them so having to look for scraps in the “black community” wouldn’t have to be an issue. —

          But that’s not what I’m talking about.

          On one hand you have black women working towards the collective benefit of fully black women.

          On the other hand you have *a growing number* of those women who will give birth to daughters that are not allowed to be considered fully black women.

          At what point do you expect a mother, who is getting older, to continue to work for the benefit of the collective of fully black women if her children cannot be included… and, for the sake of argument, she HAS married well and “is good” and doesn’t really NEED to work towards the benefit of the black female collective because “she’s straight – personally- and so are her offspring”, especially since her offspring cannot be a part of that group.

          This is not like she needs the collective to support her kids when her husband should.

          It’s like saying ‘we have this scholarship fund for fully black women and we are not awarding this scholarship to biracial black women, and since you are a fully black woman who is progressive we would like you to contribute, but your own offspring can never apply. You are to use your husbands resources to help your children (of course) but ALSO divert some of his resources to the benefit of fully black women, of which YOU as a mother are one of, but your children cannot be a part of.

          That y’all don’t see how that is a wee bit odd baffles me.

          — I would say as evia said that you could still make sure you support other full black women, like khadija is pointing out AW do, but use your husbands resources for any biracial children you might have.–

          Yeah but drawing this line in the sand differentiating between biracial black women and fully black women hasn’t really been a thing before. It’s always been that biracial black women ARE considered black women.

          But there’s not much more I can debate about this point. You’d have to ask black women with biracial daughters if they’d be up for supporting the (fully black) black female collective to the exclusion of their (non fully black) daughters and see how many say “yeah, that absolutely makes perfect sense to me.”

        • I think you’ve just answered your own question.
          but i have one for you. Why would these bi racial children who, in your hypothetical example, are already taken care of need to be seen as fully black women? if they already have the resources that they need from their families why would they, as you say NEED to apply for a scholarship that doesn’t apply to them? Scholarships are mostly for those who need them. Why would someone who doesn’t need them apply and take benifits from people when they already have their own? We all know why black women would benefit but what exactly is the benefit from this for bi-racial people. You said it wasn’t about privileges but I still am not sure what my child would gain by pretending they were not bi-racial.

          Futher I don’t see this as odd because this is what the majority of the world sans black american women DO. and they are fairing better than AA women do by leaps and bounds and their children bi-racial or not are doing better than AA american women and their offspring by leaps and bounds. Evia was just talking about how she married a Nigerian man who provided for their children but that they weren’t considered full black (and she didn’t expect them to take those resources) but they were still provided for. Why would not being identified as full black be an issue if they are well provided for (by your own example) wouldn’t the issue then be moot.
          I would ask myself why the entire world seems to be able to secure resources for their children who are bi-racial while still providing resources back to the group they are actually identified with. I guess this is what Khadija and faith mean that most AA’s and especially AA women have little ethnic pride in themselves that other groups seem to have and the desire to see people that look like them succeed. *shurgs* it is what it is.

          Edit: Also this is what i said a few comments back that even if you wanted to help your biracial children you couldn’t do that until you HELP yourself by collectively bringing your group up.

        • —I would ask myself why the entire world seems to be able to secure resources for their children who are bi-racial while still providing resources back to the group they are actually identified with. —

          First there’s no evidence that the ENTIRE WORLD does this. A few examples were given, but we don’t have the data to indicate how common it is for people to do this. We can provide anecdotal information, but that’s about it.

          To answer your question:

          —Why would these bi racial children who, in your hypothetical example, are already taken care of need to be seen as fully black women—

          I’m not saying they NEED to be seen as fully black women. Never actually said that at all.

          That’s not my point though, it’s about realizing that as the BWE movement becomes more and more successful, that there will be a growing group of black women who have biracial-black children and these divisions are bound to create conflicts of interest.

          — Also this is what i said a few comments back that even if you wanted to help your biracial children you couldn’t do that until you HELP yourself by collectively bringing your group up.—

          Absolutely positively untrue. There’s the micro and the macro. Your immediate family is the micro. You CAN raise a thriving family despite what’s going on in the culture. It will be challenging, but no one actually HAS to help the collective group to create a situation in which their family can thrive.

          Helping the collective is the macro. It doesn’t HAVE to be done, but it is COMMONLY done out of a sense of community and obligation or a feeling of wanting to help others/give back/leave a legacy (etcetera).

          But it’s not required.

          Totally optional.

          So, with that being optional, a mother has so many different ways she can help the macro, again, she’s not required to help the macro along the lines of her race-gendered identity. She can choose other ways to “classify” as she goes about her “bringing the collective up” (i.e. religion). Individual/family resources are limited, you only have so much money and time to dole out. And when you’re doling it out, part of the consideration is what has an overall benefit to you and yours. It’s how mothers can go and create a charter school to ONLY help their children, everybody else’s can fend for themselves.

          So when one is dividing up their resources to causes to help the “collective”, considering all the ways this can be done, it will be a HARD SELL getting her to divert some of those resources to a group that says “yeah YOU’RE cool, but your kids can’t sit with us.”

        • on the one hand you say these supposed children don’t need these resources because of their families. On the next you say that resources are limited and you only have so much to dole out which is why black women would need to dip into “Full black’ resources. I’m not sure at this point which one it is.

          Well we know for a fact that it wasn’t an issue for bw like Evia who actually *raised* multi-ethnic sons and didn’t encounter this problem because her husband provided for her children. Khadija also listed a number of examples that proved that white women frequently do that when they marry black men. If there is no data, as you said we can only go by what we see, correct? Unless of course that is not the case which means I could be just as correct in my guess as you are. Although when it comes down to it I think everyone can see that that everyone and their children excluding black women are #winning. Lets not split hairs and certainly we must ask ourselves what’s the difference as there must be *some* difference in behaviors to warrant such different results. Let’s also not forget that most non-blacks and foreign blacks do not think along the same lines as most of the zombie blacks who most frequently walk around.

          You say that the collective of BW’s race/gendered idenity is MACRO and not required to help out. True enough. But YOU just said that if any of your bi-racial children might need resources that come along with identifying as FULL black. To do that, that would require black women to BUILD UP said group so that your hypothetical children would have resources to draw From. I’m not sure how that isn’t apparent as I’ve pointed this out multiple times. As it stands black women *collectively* have very few resources. Unless black women BUILD UP said resources for said children the issue is actually moot because as it stands, as Khadija says the collective of AA BW and their children are currently in a free fall. That means NoBODY is going to get anything. Finally I brought up the COMMUNITY resouces because that is what you are saying that BW are going to want to give resources FROM. If BW such as yourself want to provide from your own community to your bi-racial children (which I don’t think would be necessary if one has a husband that could provide but w/e) then said macro level community would NEED to have such resources. At the moment all of black women’s resources are being FUNNLED out without EVER being returned so that NOBODY will get anything in the long run either way. You haven’t addressed this at all.

        • Gina,

          I’ll leave this aspect of the conversation on this note: I don’t know or understand why the prospect of this particular *potential* “conflict of interest” you perceive might happen in the future is deserving of *this* amount and type of debate. I just don’t get it. But then again, there’s no need for me to get it. Everybody’s mileage does (and should) vary. It’s all good. 🙂

          It seems to me that those AA women who have little/no ethnic pride will latch onto ANY excuse for their ongoing refusal to support other AA women and girls who are just like them. It doesn’t matter what the particular issue might be, the masses of AA women always find “reasons” not to support their OWN interests. They always find “reasons” to continue any and all self-destructive Business As Usual practices and behaviors.

          As far as I’m concerned, if large numbers of AA women are so brainwashed/stupid/self-hating/Fill In The Blank Self-Destructive Attribute that we just can’t do the basic things that every other type of woman seems to do—without bucket loads of angst—then we deserve to suffer the things we’re collectively suffering right now.

          All this talk of what’s purportedly not possible reminds me of the naysayers in the early days of BWE (just 6-7 years ago). Just a few years back it was the commonly accepted consensus that AA Black women “couldn’t” date or marry out. Not just the negro male Internet Ike Turners said this, but LOTS of well-meaning AA Black women also made these sorts of heartfelt, sincere comments about what AA women “can’t” do and all the potential “conflicts of interest” that would be caused if AABW starting looking out for their own interests.

          The same Well-Meaning But Naysaying AA Black women said that the early BWE pioneers were living on Fantasy Island to think that AABW had any *real* options for marrying out.

          The same Well-Meaning But Naysaying AA Black women said that the early BWE bloggers were engaging in delusional revenge fantasies when we urged other AA women to explore ALL their dating and marriage options. [YES, some non-troll folks actually said things like that.]

          THIS “AA Women Don’t Have Any Choice But To Hope & Pray A BM Will Marry Them” belief was the common wisdom. This belief was the consensus at the beginning of BWE. Any examples given to the contrary were dismissed as anecdotal and only representative of isolated incidents. The more mean-spirited commenters laughed at and made mockery of the very idea that AABW had marriage choices other than BM.

          I remember all of this because I remember seeing commenters at various and sundry so-called “mainstream” Black blogs bad-mouth me and other BWE bloggers by saying that we were all delusional to think that anybody except BM would want to date or marry more than a microscopic number of AABW.

          And then a funny thing started happening about 2-3 years ago: Suddenly, commenters across the Black blogosphere were mentioning that they were suddenly seeing larger and larger numbers of “isolated incidents” of AABW out on dates with (and cuddled up with wedding rings) nonblack men.

          And, as these numbers of AABW dating and marrying out “mysteriously” and VISIBLY increased over the past couple of years, all these Black folks who previously said it wasn’t possible acted as if nothing had changed. And all that talk about how AABW “can’t” date and marry out in significant numbers dried up. And these same naysayers acted as if they had never pronounced these shifts as being “impossible” and “impossible for large numbers of AABW” and “impossible because it would cause conflicts of interest,” etc.

          So, I’m saying all this to say that I agree with you that time will tell, as it always does. I just happen to not see this as such a big hurdle for those AA women who are truly self-loving and self-actualizing—May our numbers continue to increase. Ameen! [= “Amen!”]

        • Khadija I think i’m confused most of all because people want their kids to get the benefits of identifying as full black and yet don’t want build up those FULL black communities in which their biracial children will take from. THAT confounds me as that is the only way for that scenario to work out.
          It reminds me of the saying that I hate but I’m staring to see validity in that ‘everyone wants to be black but nobody wants to be black”. I’m really just #confused as I would have thought that even if you were to prescribe to the idea of allowing biracials to pull from full black mothers that would mean you’d have to HAVE something to give. Further I don’t think its doing any black biracial children any favors to force them into the FULL black territory. That has been done for *centuries* and now AA label has become a dumping ground of disenfranchised individual bi-racial or not and allowed non blacks/ whites to get away refusing to let these people have a seat at the table because after all they *are* black.
          But I think as was pointed out the most important thing is that these Bi-Racial children actually give BACK to the AA bw they are drawing resources from. As it stands we have No guarantee of that either.

      • Well damn Khadija,
        *graciously tips hat and curtsies*
        You broke that down in a way even I hadn’t thought of before. And that makes perfect sense. I really don’t have anything else to say except that I agree with everything. You were right even I didn’t think about the husbands resources. Lol you’re right black women have been trained not to. Thanks so much for the insight.

        • OLS,

          You’re most welcome! 🙂

          I learn a lot from high-quality conversations—like the ones you host here on your blog. Which is why I’m happy Gina raised these questions. I hadn’t really thought about this until she asked.

          YES, AA women have been programmed AWAY from normal female expectations and behavior patterns (in order to compensate for AA males’ enduring failure to take up MEN’S responsibilities).

          It also occurs to me that this “How Dare You Expect To Draw From Your Husband’s Resources To Support Your Married Life & The Baby You Two Made—That’s What Your Female Relatives Are For” issue was a *major* subtext to that crazy Facebook discussion you referenced earlier. When AA women like the crazy dissenters in that conversation talk about “family support,” what they’re really talking about is pimping their female relatives to provide the material support that should be coming from their husband and/or baby daddy.

          IIRC, the women who run both of those related Facebook pages are Nigerian. So when they’re speaking about marriage-related issues, they’re speaking from the perspective of women who’ve been raised to expect their husbands to be the primary AND preferred source of support for themselves and their offspring.

          Again, to be blunt, every woman on the planet except AA Black women have been raised and socialized to STAY drawing material resources from their husbands! And they do this HARD, with no apologies. Because that’s what husbands are for—to provide material resources for their wife and children.

          I wish I could find the link, but I recall a Lipstick Alley thread (of all places) that talked about how the nonblack relatives of BM celebrities’ nonblack wives STAY spending those negro males’ money. How nonblack wives and their nonblack relatives GO HARD with spending those negroes’ money to start up businesses for their nonblack side of the family. And I ain’t mad at them for that.

          A lot of colored gurlz get very butt-hurt and angry when I or other BWE writers reference Asian women as examples of women who are collectively winning, but it is what it is. Asian women (and their offspring) are collectively WINNING! in the U.S. while AA women (and their offspring) are collectively LOSING! Anybody who can’t see this is blind, crippled and crazy.

          Elijah Muhammad taught his followers to set aside their emotions and study the successful person’s methods.

          Asian women (and most of the African women that I’ve known well enough to see what it is that they’re actually doing) are raised to get ALL they can get from their future husbands. And to find and select a husband who can give them MORE. And this is the way it’s supposed to be—this behavior pattern has been proven over thousands of years to be the winning strategy for women and their offspring. And there’s nothing wrong with this.

        • I saw that Facebook thread. SMH. Sooner or later bw are going to have to realize they can no longer depend on their families for endless help as resources become scarce for EVERYONE!

  22. The gist of this discussion seems to be the search for a “home” for the biracial children of bw-wm? This is because we know that whites are not going to view or accept them as white. As things stand now and in the near future, no matter how much money, power, and influence a white father has, he cannot force other whites to view and accept his child as white. Those children will therefore be limited. The same goes for the children of bw-Asian men and bw-African men, bw-Middle-Eastern men, etc.. Our children will always be biracial or bi-cultural. An African American friend of mine married an Egyptian man and they had a son. The son is now grown, and he is not accepted as an Egyptian man by other Egyptians. He has certain limited privileges among them due to his dad. That’s all. And like my sons, he is also viewed as “different” when he’s among large segments of African Americans also. Each group knows that these children are not exactly like other more full-blooded members of their group, My children and her son have been influenced by African American mothers AND their fathers, so they ARE “different.”

    So, IMO, it’s a ridiculous notion that anyone should even hint at suggesting that they should be the face of African Americans OR of their fathers nationalities. I’ve read these arguments being posed by reasonable commenters on various sites about this issue and I can’t yet grasp why anyone should argue this–aside from the fact that I’m sure all parents want a “home” for their children. I do too. My sons have been blessed in many ways. We gave them a lot and they live well, but they have no cultural “home” that I or their dad could give them. They’ve experienced loneliness due to that. They’ve had to carve out their “home” for themselves. Likewise, bw-wm children will need to carve out their racial home.

    • Well let me step in here as an African-American mother of biracial children (some of them girls).

      Yes I am more than happy to work for the improvement of AA women, even if my daughters are not considered part of the group.

      For one thing, it would reflect on them positively to be seen as coming from a group of value on their father’s AND their mother’s side.

      For another, I’m young yet, and so have plenty of years (or so I plan, lol) for the state of unambiguously AA women to affect me directly.

      In addition, I don’t see how biracial women girls can be harmed by a focus on AA women. They are already seen as prettier, smarter, more trustworthy and more acceptable than unambiguously black women (consult your nearest sociological study). I’m already seeing commercials where the non-white wife of a white male is a probably part black multiracial/biracial woman, and ads where the only nonwhite face in a group of young, trendy young women is a woman of biracial/multiracial appearance.

      I’m a little concerned at what can seem to be at the heart of this (in my opinion) overblown focus/concern for biracial women/girls by black women. I’ve started to see this over the last few years in bw spaces. I wonder if what’s behind this is the idea that black women are “the past” and biracial women are “the future” and thus should be the focus of our effort and concern.


  23. Another thing is that many black-white biracial children are mediocre, and some are even less than average–just like other members of the population. It seems that there is a subtle assumption being made here and in other places where this issue is discussed that virtually all black-white biracial children are somehow more DESIRABLE, whether they’re viewed as more intelligent, more beautiful, more talented, or all of the above than more fully black children. Just because a child has a white parent doesn’t mean that child is guaranteed to contribute anything to any group. We know that some white women and men are mediocre/less than average people and deficient as parents. Yes, whites have privileges, but we also know that there are many really seriously messed up white people. The mental health industry is a multi-billion dollar industry, mainly because of white dollars. Some of them have issues that certainly trickle down to their children, just like the rest of the population. So, the way so many blacks view biracial children as somehow having a “special” quality is nothing more than a level of self-hate.

    Maybe I’m not understanding something, but it seems that AA women are being asked to make a giant assumption that the biracial child will be a credit to AAs? I certainly realize that AA women are in a predicament and are trying to hash out a path for not only themselves but for their children. We all love our children, so I understand that. But as a woman who thought about these issues a long time ago and made a choice, I knew that I couldn’t just adopt a superior notion that other AA women OR Nigerian mothers would just allow me to put my bi-cultural children at the head of the line to scoop the icing off the cakes. Lol

    Lastly, a very critically important aspect that is being overlooked in this discussion on MARRYING WELL (whether IR or any man) is that no matter how well a black woman marries, she STILL needs to have HER OWN identity group to which she invests in, to which SHE belongs and can rely on for social, emotional, spiritual, etc. tangible support as well as cultural camaraderie. A CQLL white husband can be totally wonderful but no woman can or even should rely on her husband for all of her needs. That’s way too burdensome. That’s also even when they’re from the exact same background. There are things that only women (people) from a woman’s identity group fully understand about her on a deeply non-verbal level. There are things for which a woman should rely on her OWN group. For ex., I do not rely on Darren for cultural camaraderie or to meet some of my other regular ongoing social, emotional, spiritual, etc. needs, and I didn’t rely on my ex-husband for that either. Without an exhaustive amount of teaching them, I’ve found that they can only supply a surface level of that, if even that much. So, for those needs, I have my girlfriends and people in MY OWN inner circle. Even if and when a white husband’s family wholly accepts the black wife, they can rarely ever meet her cultural needs. There are simply things that some black woman experience that even the nicest, closest white female friend or white female in-laws never experience and never encounter.

    We also know that many AA men with white or non-black wives or girlfriends still rely on AA women for cultural camaraderie and many AA women are happy to supply it, thinking that he’s going to leave the non-black woman and come back “home” to them. So cultural camaraderie is an important need. Other women who marry out continue to invest in their own group for that reason and others. As the saying goes; “It’s a sorry mouse that only has one hole.”

    And what if a bw and her white husband get divorced or something happens to him? The children are also going to go off one day. She won’t have him, them, and also won’t have HER OWN group of any sort. This is why many AA women end up attaching themselves to the black church. They have nothing else.

    • Evia thank you for your insightful comments especially concerning bw having support for themselves. I think this is specifically true. That is why I have tried to make friends with black women like myself as support and allies. I have non black female friends but as you said there is NOT the same level of support or understanding for some stuff. It is nice to know other AA likeminded women are around for support. Same goes for getting married. I would love to one day be a SAHM but I also got my education and am continuing my education on the off chance that something were to happen to my husband prematurely. Its always nice to have a safety net of one’s own.

      • OLS, Exactly! And it would behoove any AA woman to remember that people tend to respect you more when you have YOUR OWN. People may pity “solo birds,” but they don’t look at them the same way, let alone have the respect for them like they do for those who have a backing group or their own well-functioning parachute, right inside the closet.

  24. –on the one hand you say these supposed children don’t need these resources because of their families. On the next you say that resources are limited and you only have so much to dole out which is why black women would need to dip into “Full black’ resources. I’m not sure at this point which one it is.—

    There is a difference between community resources and family/personal resources.

    –But YOU just said that if any of your bi-racial children might need resources that come along with identifying as FULL black.–

    Noooooo, I did not make that point. And I know that I did not make that point because I do not have bi-racial children and my child bearing years are over, so I will not be having bi-racial children. So, IMO, this is a bit of a straw man.

    I was so very careful in my choice of words to ensure that I didn’t center this argument around me. So very clear. Or to even make it about me.

    I’m just going to leave this alone because it would take so much writing for me to differentiate between what I wrote and what you’re saying/implying that I meant with what I wrote.

    And I think it’s *that* process of “you said this” and “no, I didn’t say that, let me clarify” that is making this SEEM like it’s more of a debate than what it is. So with that, I’ll leave this alone.

    • That’s fine. Although I think it’s splitting hairs do differentiate between whether you were talking about yourself of *other* black women. And really it doesn’t make a difference. But okay. I hope you still comment on the rest of the posts I have planned coming up.

  25. OLS,

    For the sake of clarity, let me make it clear that in responding to your latest comment quoted below I’m talking about something OTHER than Gina’s questions/assertions.

    You said: —“Khadija I think i’m confused most of all because people want their kids to get the benefits of identifying as full black and yet don’t want build up those FULL black communities in which their biracial children will take from. THAT confounds me as that is the only way for that scenario to work out.

    It reminds me of the saying that I hate but I’m staring to see validity in that ‘everyone wants to be black but nobody wants to be black”. I’m really just #confused as I would have thought that even if you were to prescribe to the idea of allowing biracials to pull from full black mothers that would mean you’d have to HAVE something to give.”—

    My bottom line: Various categories of folks—including non-reciprocating AA Blacks of both genders—want to reserve their perceived “right” to TAKE from AA Black resources. While simultaneously reserving their “right” to NEVER give back or lift a pinky finger to help create the resources they want to take from.

    It’s the same old pimp game. The excuses and justifications given for why AABW are supposed to be okay with folks TAKING from us but NEVER giving back to us endlessly shift. But the bottom line is that everybody is used to being able to TAKE from AABW without ever having to build up the resources they’re taking from AABW. And they want this state of affairs to continue.

    Any behavior by AABW that looks like drawing a line in the sand or setting new conditions on who may TAKE from us will always be resisted. Always.

    To put it in plain terms, AABW and whatever resources we cobble together are the designated Back-Up Safety Net & Plan B for everybody. Very few people truly want that to change. You saw that with the BW who were shrieking during the Facebook conversation we’ve referenced earlier.

    The dissenters we’ve mentioned were shrieking because what the Facebook page owner was suggesting would have the effect of forcibly removing that dysfunctional, self-induced poverty-stricken married couples’ mouths from their female relatives’ [metaphorical] nursing breasts.

    Everybody feels its their God-given right to suck AABW’s blood without ever doing anything to keep the AABW host body healthy enough to drain. Including other AABW. Which is why the masses of AABW are circling the drain in terms of resources and quality of life.

    Successful parasites tend to refrain from draining the host bodies to the very last dregs—in order to create a sustainable parasite-host relationship. What I find amazing is that the various folks who leech off of AABW (including other AABW) don’t seem to be concerned about killing the host bodies they depend on for their sustenance. [Killing them by starving them of resources (“food”).]

    Which is what I believe Moriah was talking about when she said: —“Sooner or later bw are going to have to realize they can no longer depend on their families for endless help as resources become scarce for EVERYONE!”—

    Well, time will tell, and we’ll all see how much longer it takes until a critical mass of AABW host bodies fall over dead (economically and health-wise) and can’t feed any more parasites. {smh}

  26. I’ll say this and I’m gone from this discussion.

    I agree that the bottom line with typical black biracial women wanting to remain attached to unambiguously black women but without making it a strident priority to contribute significantly to expand AA women’s resources is mainly about wanting to insure that there is a safety net for them in case they are at some point no longer “the chosen” ones. Right now, black biracial women have been put in the position to skim off a disproportionate number of the plum opportunities away from unambiguously black women in certain arenas. We have seen this. However, there is no guarantee that this will continue–because what is given can be taken away. Black biracial women have no way to make sure the gravy train keeps rolling their way, ASIDE from using their “Black-but-not-so-Black card” which is their strongest card right now. But as I’ve been saying for years, solo birds always fall down. That’s why I worked at developing MICOMSA. So, at this point, this is WHY the vast majority of biracial women won’t cut their ties or some, in particular, will fight to the bone to remain attached to unambiguously black women. Everyone knows that AA women are the backbone of AAs. And these biracial women know that at THIS point, the masses of unambiguously black women have their back in the U.S. and similar places. The way I see it, their typical white fathers and mothers are not ever going to step out against the entire group of whites to back them up. That would be SUICIDAL. They know they would be virtually beheaded. Look at what happened to Mayor DeBlasio.

    The times are interesting. The massive wave of biracial daughters of the AW-Wm is coming! There will be a hierarchy among biracials because these Asian mothers do have huge, thriving, powerful networks and groups of the Asian masses behind them, and these women invest heavily in their respective groups. It wouldn’t even occur to them not to do that.

    As an aside, I’ve seen African women unapologetically and unabashedly funnel as much of their husband’s (or boyfriend’s) money and other resources back to their own family or ethnic group. I’ve seen this in action for many years. This is a standard operating practice among these women. They will do whatever it takes to keep their base strong. The husband or serious boyfriend of an African woman knows that he must actually make a “line item” in his budgets for his wife’s family/group. LOL

  27. @Gina, and OLS,

    I know I’m late to the conversation concerning BW’s resources, and I have not commented recently, but my thoughts on the matter are as follows.

    I agree with Khadijah in regards to the BC (Black Community/Collective) will not have any significant resources to pull from. So I think this question of whether Biracial women/girls pulling from the BC’s resources will be a moot question in the future. Yes we as “UB” BW should make sure resources go directly to other “UB” girls as much as we possibly can, but the well is almost dry.

    As far as personal resources go, I believe with the state the US is in concerning our rapidly deteriorating infrastructure, any BW’s best bet is to hedge as many resources as she can for herself and her family. I believe in the near future all of us will be struggling to provide the basic necessities of life. And let’s be real, the vast majority of BW will not marry someone with ‘trust funds’ and majority stake in businesses. Most of us that marry interracially will probably marry someone who may be a rung or two up the economic ladder. And that is okay. Most BW who marry interracially will probably be from middle to upper-middle class and will marry a middle to upper-middle class non-black guy.

    I say all that to point out any significant resources you can squirrel away need to be hoarded for the future. I suggest converting some portion of your ‘fiat’ money to time tested precious metals like gold and/or basic commodities like long term shelf life food. Yes, I do believe it will get that bad in this country. So stop worrying about the BC; it is done for. You only have a little more time to plan and prepare for you and yours.

    • Lynn, you said
      [QUOTE]And let’s be real, the vast majority of BW will not marry someone with ‘trust funds’ and majority stake in businesses. Most of us that marry interracially will probably marry someone who may be a rung or two up the economic ladder. And that is okay. Most BW who marry interracially will probably be from middle to upper-middle class and will marry a middle to upper-middle class non-black guy. [/QUOTE]

      Yes. And it is more than okay if the guy has mental and social resources from which to draw for himself and his family. There are guys who will never run anyone’s hedge fund who are and will be just fine. Why? They can hunt, fish, grow food, fix a flat tire, and rig up a car engine to be a generator when the power goes out. And if they can’t fix/build something, well, they probably have a buddy who can. A woman married to THAT guy will be in a much better position than one married to a middle manager who can’t tell a pickaxe from a hammer.

  28. Ok. Now that I’ve gotten some rest, I can finish writing what I wanted to share. I’m going to write 3 separate posts: 1) What I’m Seeing, 2) Culture: A Perspective, 3) My (historical) Plans.

    Phew! Lol


    I recently started working as a nurse in the emergency department (ED). This is a new area of focus for me and an “entirely different world”.

    NOTE: I am from a Midwestern state that typically votes Republican. I’m from an “urban” area, but growing up, people were primarily white, black, with a few Asians. In more recent years, we’ve seen increasing numbers of Hispanics, other Asians, and various African groups (particularly Somalians).

    Anyway, working in the ED, you see large numbers of people on a daily basis. You have people who come by emergency squad, and you also have those who bring themselves to the hospital for various reasons. I will tell you now that the reason I am typing this post is so that AAW will have a different perspective on how BW are viewed/received. Also, I want to share some things I’ve noticed with different populations.

    Here’s (SOME of) what I’ve seen:

    – A Middle Eastern man came with his daughter who (obviously) had a black mother. In my mind, I wondered if her mother was AA or something else. This man was light-skinned, had green eyes, straight hair. He was a nice-looking man. And, I’m not saying this because of his description, I’m saying this because it was true (though “beauty” is subjective). Anyway, the little girl had brown skin and curly dark hair. She was a cutie pie. Here father looked like he was Palestinian. He CHERISHED this little girl. He spoke with and handled her so tenderly. And, she was just a HAPPY KID. Later, her mother walked up. She was a black African lady. She had rich brown skin (Gabrielle Union range). I think she was Somalian. She looked like it, and she was also wearing a hijab. She had BLACK features. She didn’t look like an Arab, Indian, etc. They looked like a sweet and happy family.

    – A Hispanic family came with their two children. The mother clearly looked like she had black blood, though Hispanics would not classify her as “black/Negra”. She had a lighter/sandy color, and her hair was straight, but had black texturing (though I could not tell if she straightened it or it just grew that way). She was very attractive. Honestly, for “us”, if she told you she was AA, you would have believed/accepted it. The father was clearly Hispanic, and you would not suspect he had black heritage (off the bat). He had dark hair/dark eyes.
    Anyway, both of their kids were “sandy”-colored with Caucasian-ish features and blonde hair. Hispanics may consider them “white”. I don’t know. But, I think they were a little too dark to be completely accepted as whites in the USA. Otherwise, they did not look “black”. The mom didn’t speak English, but she was very nice/friendly towards me. The children smiled at and interacted with me freely. They also seemed like a very happy family. It was actually a very cute and challenging situation, as we were trying to help a toddler, but I’m not going into that. I also wondered/suspected the mother may have a grandmother who’s my degree of blackness. She seemed comfortable/amiable towards me. There was no sense of “animosity” like you get from SOME “mixed” people. I don’t know if you understand what I mean.

    – A Hispanic lady (possibly Central American) with very brown skin and dark curly hair came with her fair-skinned, blue eyed, blonde curly-haired daughter. She was a pretty little girl, and SHE COULD be accepted as “white” in the USA. She looked Caucasian with only a small amount of color. Anyway, the mother and daughter were both friendly to me. The little girl had a Doc McStuffins doll and a brown/black barbie doll. Her father later came, and he was a white American.

    -An AA young lady came with her live-in boyfriend. She was very dark (probably Viola Davis’ coloring or darker). She was nice-looking but looked “black”. She was not a “white girl dipped in chocolate”. In other words, she was not the type AAs would make “a big deal” over. But, she looked like your standard AA girl–her hair was relaxed and nicely styled, she looked around a size 8, she had full lips, etc. She looked “like a black girl”. Anyway, her boyfriend was a cute blonde-haired, blue eyed, white American guy.

    What am I trying to say with these examples? It is NOT TRUE that nonBM are unwilling to marry/procreate with BW. It is NOT TRUE that nonBM are unwilling to have children who look “like us” or MAY look “like us”. A LOT of men are attracted to BW and willing to love, marry, cherish, and build families with them. NO, you don’t have to look like a BR “supermodel”. AAW need to choose their image and behaviors WISELY, because they can “shut themselves out” of the selection process, while other black/blackish women get selected, married, and provided for.

    A couple other things I was trying to show is that BW’s beauty IS appreciated by men with fair/white skin, “light” eyes, straight hair, etc., because AAW are socialized to believe men of those phenotypes will not be attracted to “black girl looking” black girls. THIS is the *BM* “hangup”. Also, some of these mixed children BW create will look “whiter”, over time. They aren’t necessarily going to look “obviously black” like Halle Berry.

    Other observations (not BW-related):

    – South Asian men frequently accompany their women/children to the hospital. The woman may be holding the child or giving information. But, her husband is usually there with her to provide additional information or speak on her behalf.

    – Middle Eastern men also usually accompany their women/children to the hospital. Often (probably most of the time), the man will be holding the child and presenting the information. The mother may be there, but the man does the majority of the communicating. The mother usually lets the father speak, unless you directly ask her questions. Middle Eastern men bring their children to the hospital on their own, without the mother’s presence. Their children are very dear to them, and you can see the pride in their faces.

    – A lot of people come to the ED as family units–especially among immigrant populations. I also see cohabiting family units, with AAs. But, the same level of “stability” is often not there with AA cohabiting units, unfortunately. Whenever I see “stable” AA families, the parents/couples are usually older. I don’t see it as much with younger AAs. It makes me sad.

    Ok. On to the next post.


    Sources for the thoughts I’m going to share:

    I’ve dated/been proposed to by men of various races/cultures. My best friend is half East Indian, half Thai and Muslim. Two of the strongest, most significant relationships I’ve had in my life were with a Pakistani Muslim and an Indian Hindu. In college, I studied “Asian Philosophies” (which heavily focused on religions from India and then East Asian religions/philosophies) and “Politics in India and Indonesia” (which explained religious ideology of Hinduism, because it is so integral to the structure of Indian society, and also touched upon the influence of Islam in Indonesia because, if my memory serves me correctly, Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world).

    Ok. There is TOO MUCH history and detail about these matters to try to cover in an internet post. My goal is to help AAW understand the factors that can come into play when having relationships with people of different cultures. I also want AAW to understand what “culture” means to other groups. It’s VERY DIFFERENT than the AA treatment/interpretation.

    I have a lot of personal dealings with South Asian people. So, what I’m sharing is more characteristic of their cultures.

    1. Asian cultures have a strong belief in honoring parents and respecting elders.

    2. Asian cultures believe in doing what is best for the family/society over what is best for the individual.

    3. Asians care deeply about bloodlines, family reputation, heritage, religion, and language.

    4. Asians highly value obedience from children.

    5. The son (particularly eldest son) is expected to provide for the family and protect the family line.

    6. This list is NOWHERE NEAR exhaustive.

    There is just TOO MUCH that can be said. So, I’m just going to start presenting thoughts.

    If you ever watch Asian movies, there is A STRONG emphasis on obedience and allegiance to the culture/people group. Unlike American society that celebrates “rebellion”, Asian media celebrates adherence to family/cultural expectations. Another theme shown is having those born and/or raised in Western societies to marry someone from “back home” and returning to the country of their people.

    My best friend’s family immigrated to the US and they had to work very hard to make progress. Their parents speak little English. Their oldest brother worked hard, bought them a home, and followed tradition, allowing his father to pick his wife from India. The son COMPLETELY deferred to his father’s selection.

    My best friend is not the oldest child or oldest daughter. However, she felt responsible for making decisions that would make her parents happy to compensate for choices her siblings made that disappointed her parents (read: “DAD”). They didn’t do anything “bad” by American standards, but Asian culture expectations are different.

    My best friend has told me that she’s happy she doesn’t have in-laws because she doesn’t “want to deal with it”. I’ve never thought that way. But, I guess I can understand.

    When dating an Asian guy, certain things have the potential to help:
    – There’s an elder brother/another brother fulfilling the family expectations
    – There is more than one son
    – The man has already married and had an Asian family
    – The man is in the US, providing for the family, and there are plenty of other children to keep the parents busy back home (lol)
    – Primary: THE PARENTS are open-minded and willing to accept you (not likely, unfortunately)
    – Not to be “morose”, but–the parents are dead.

    The things that can harm are opposite of the list above. However, I wanted to stress that these things apply to OTHER ASIANS, as well. My ex’s sister fell in love with another Indian. The Indian was “forward caste”, just as she was. He was educated, light-skinned, and LOVED her. Problem? He was NORTH Indian. She was SOUTH Indian. He and his parents spoke HINDI. Her parents DID NOT. I could go into more detail to explain these things, but it’s just too much. HIS parents didn’t care. They accepted her. HER parents (read: “DAD”) rejected their relationship. There was so much stress for a long time that her husband was actually going to end the relationship. But, they eventually married. These were a few of the stressors BETWEEN TWO INDIANS.

    My ex was not racist. When he learned about some of the racist foundations of certain beliefs, he was put off by them and rejected them. However, my ex was an ONLY son, cared deeply about his parents (BOTH–but, read: “DAD”), had many family obligations, etc.

    While a primary reason I am attracted to Asian cultures is the valuing of elders and respect for parents (because those are TRADITIONAL AA values), that can lead to many relationship challenges, because Asians take “obedience” TO A WHOLE ‘NOTHER LEVEL. We did not marry. It would have been MUCH easier for me to marry the Pakistani, because his circumstances were ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. I COULD HAVE. But, I didn’t, for reasons of my own.

    What I want to say about Asians and racism/prejudice:

    Are Asians “racist”? YES. But, it’s not just about “race”. There’s more to it than that.
    Are Asians “color prejudiced”? HELL YES. But, there’s more to it than that.

    My ex and the Pakistani guy LOVED Gabrielle Union. EVERY TIME they saw her, they said, “She is good.” That means, “She is good-looking.” The Pakistani guy and his friends also loved Brandy (and, YOU KNOW, how badly AAs talk about Brandy’s appearance). You know who my Indian ex did not find all that attractive? Halle Berry and Tracee Ellis Ross. You know who else my Indian ex thought was beautiful? Serena Williams. I bet you my friend’s dad is “blacker” than EVERYBODY ON THIS PAGE. But, he is a Democrat and voted for Republicans because he was mad Democrats selected Obama over Hillary. But, you know what, HE LOVES Serena Williams. One time, I was over his house and she was on tv, he told me, “THAT IS MY WIFE.”

    Mmm Hmmm….

    I’ve heard several Indians (men AND women) tell me they think Serena Williams IS BEAUTIFUL. What do AAs say? You already know.

    I just wanted to, once again, let AAW know they are desired and valued by more people than they realize. However, certain cultures can be very difficult to penetrate. And, while “it’s because you’re black”, IT’S NOT *JUST* because you’re black.

    Oh, before I end this post.

    Jesus Christ was born a little over 2000 years ago. Buddha was born LONG before Jesus. And, Hinduism was around LONG before that. However, you have so many people who are adherent to and a society so strongly organized by the Hindu faith. Hindus have been adherent to/identified with that belief system/culture for literally THOUSANDS of years. The US has not even been in existence that long. And, AAs have shown they can’t maintain a culture for even 50 years. This “culture” stuff IS DEEP. And, many AAs “don’t get it”, because we just don’t have it. But, this is ONE reason why it is difficult to pair with people from other group

    • Maybe its because my parents are immigrants?, I knew this stuff already. I keep a very diverse set of friends and I’m a very observant person. In high school one of my close friends was Bengali. I remember going to her house and her aunt, cousin, grandma, etc ALL of them lived in the same apartment and the rest in the same building. I remember one day she just dropped her sister off without notice to another neighbor so they can play. I mean JUST LIKE THAT ! The ‘It takes a village to raise a child’ mindset if definitely their in asian culture.
      Another anecdote is my friend who is my age (19) is Palestinian just got married. Another one who (yemenese) is getting married. Both men they are marrying are successfu. One thing i’ve always noticed with asians/arabs/ indians/persians it is expected that the men become successful and do better than their father. No exceptions.l I always analyze how contrary black people are compared to other people of color minorities. You and I think VERY alike. With all of what you wrote and knowing how black women ESPECIALLY AA women, I don’t believe AA women are ready for interracial relationships because they are so far removed physically and MENTALLY from that lifestyle. Even though my parents are divorced all my aunts and uncles were married. My mom raised me to choose the right type of friends so I made sure to choose friends who were first generation like I am and who have two parent house holds. Although, I must say most of my friends are first generation American as I live in NYC! Being exposed to this helps all of what you wrote become very normal to me!And very true about what you say about the culture stuff being deep. Black people as you say “don’t get it”. I can completely understand why other groups of people wouldn’t want their children to mate with us, most black children aren’t even born in wedlock to begin with. This is the first step in the beginning of the creation of a functional family and legacy. Other groups of people care and think about legacy and blood ties/lines. The same can not be said for blacks.

      • Moriah,

        Having immigrant parents DOES make a huge difference in one’s perspective. I know that when I graduated high school, my concept of “culture” was “food, language, music, clothing, dancing”. I really didn’t have an understanding of the nuances of communication (both verbal and non-verbal), interpersonal interactions, behavioral patterns/expectations, etc. It wasn’t until I had my personal relationship experiences with others (including Moroccan, Jamaican, white American, etc.) that my understanding/awareness developed and grew.

        My commentary, though shared with this group, isn’t really addressed to this group, because the posters here have education and life experiences that have broadened their perspectives. My comments truly are for the other AA women/girls who are knew to these concepts and have never had much exposure outside of the AA “collective”. I know how many “typical” AA girls are socialized to feel no one else will want them, consider them desirable, take them seriously as partners, unless they have that “exotical” or Caucasian look AA males have a fetish for. I also know how some of the girls who THINK they have the “right look” want to tell those who allegedly “don’t” that they need to “be more realistic”. I had a light-skinned “friend” tell me that once. If she told me that today, I would be like, “BYTCH PLEASE.”

        I think many AAW are ready for IRR, but they are women LIKE US, who are already free from the mental constraints of the AA population. Honestly, I never dated until after high school, and my first relationship was with the Pakistani guy. I never thought of myself as “interracial dating”. I was just dating a nice, cute guy who happened to be from another country. Now, I’ve been approached by so many different types of men that I don’t really even think about it. When a man approaches me, I think to myself…”Does he seem like a nice guy?” “Does he seem to have a family orientation?” “Is he respectful?” “What are his work ethic and life goals?” “Does he carry himself well?” “Does he like children?” “How does he treat other people?” The “race” of the guy is truly inconsequential. And, YES, I do ask myself, “Am I attracted to him?”

        On these BWE sites, we commenters aren’t really trying to convince each other of the need for AAW to expand their options, IMO. WE ALREADY KNOW THIS. We are sharing our analyses with each other, and trying to provide encouragement and understanding to those AAW who have not reached that point yet. We’re trying to “pay it forward” (GOOD MOVIE, btw).

        I, too, was born to married parents who are now divorced. The situations of my family members vary. One point I’ve raised before is that I was heavily influenced by my grandfather in my upbringing. My grandfather was 76/77 years old, when I was born. My parents had me in their 30s, so when I was an older school-aged child, my parents were in their 40s. My life was VERY DIFFERENT from my cohorts. They had boyfriends, were dating, allowed to wear makeup and pierce their ears at much earlier ages. My dad didn’t even want me to wear COLORED LIPGLOSS. I wasn’t allowed to talk to boys on the phone. One time, when I was in 10th grade, a boy who liked me was allowed to come over to visit. He and I played Jenga, along with my mom. And, guess what? My grandfather was sitting there in the same room. Lol. But, guess what, I was never a teen baby mama. My mother always preferred to keep me away from girls who were. I never understood why. I do now. Non-virgins USUALLY don’t want you to be a virgin EITHER. Lol.

        I, on the contrary, think anyone is A FOOL, if they can’t see the value of AAs, and particularly, AAW. If it weren’t for AAs, non-Europeans wouldn’t even be allowed TO SET FOOT in this country, let alone become citizens. Additionally, AAW face TERRIFIC ODDS with MINIMAL SUPPORT and often do very well, considering their circumstances. My Indian ex, who was attracted to a wide variety of women, told me that while he finds other women attractive, he has a special admiration for AAW because they face a type of discrimination that other women don’t face. I never talked to him about that. HE SAW IT. That’s one reason I really appreciated him. I never had to educate him or persuade him to see the wrongness of bigotry and injustice. He saw it on his own. I prefer a man who can independently process things like that and reach conclusions that support what is right.

        Furthermore, I see non AAW who are single mothers getting accepted, married, and supported by men ALL THE TIME–whether they are divorced, single baby mamas, etc. So many people want to deny AAW the same sensitivity and acceptance. AAW are not baby mamas because they WANT to be (usually). They are baby mamas because the fathers of their children REFUSE TO COMMIT to them. OTHER PEOPLE SEE AND RECOGNIZE THIS. My Asian best friend watched that tv special on AAW and their marriage plight that I think was on ABC a couple years ago. I didn’t watch it. However, after watching it, she told me she thought “it was interesting” and that “AAM need to marry THEIR OWN women.” People with sense ARE NOT fools. Most people can see AAW ARE AMAZING and are just suffering from a lack of support FROM and a sense of commitment TO a group of noncontributing, self-hating men.

        AAW are women, just like other women. They have emotional and human needs, also. It is important that the AAW is able to receive sensitivity just like other women. As I said before, I am “traditional”, and I am “Christian”. I love the “nuclear family” and believe that it is a beautiful and successful arrangement, when it is designed and functions properly. However, I also believe in women’s rights and cannot stand the HYPOCRISY of men.

        If a woman wants to be a mother, I believe she has the right TO BE a mother. Some women may have difficulty being committed to men for various reasons. They may be the victims of molestation/rape, for example. Should a woman be denied “motherhood”, simply because she has a challenge with men? I don’t personally think so. I believe it is good for a child to have both their mother AND father. And, I support such, in my writings.

        The reason I speak so strongly against women who lack resources having children without marriage is because it creates SO MANY CHALLENGES for them AND their children. It becomes MUCH more difficult to escape the vagaries of poverty and political powerlessness. Otherwise, if a woman has sufficient resources and infrastructure to have a child without being married to a man, that’s her own personal decision. I would personally be concerned about the implications for a child not having a father in their life.

        Once again, I use my RIGHTS as a woman to be BOTH traditional AND nuclear-family oriented. I am not “sacrificing” my women’s rights to be so. These are the orientations I PREFER AND CHOOSE. It’s funny to me how people see being traditional as an indication of “oppression”. Comical.

        But, we commenters on BWE blogs are trying to be “a beacon” for the many AAW/girls out there who ARE DESERVING of a much better life and appreciation. ANYONE who cannot see and recognize the value of AAW/girls IS A FOOL.

        • AGREE with everything that you said! I remember my mom said this to me a few weeks ago. Black women are the most resilient people in the world. VERY True!

  30. Thank you Formavitae.
    My husband is a White American, and we have similar cultural values. Both of us believe in committment, taking care of parents when they cannot take care of themselves, tolerating their… idiosyncrasies with a smile (as we hope ours will be when we get their age), giving them their due respect while not letting them have veto over our decisions or life.

    It is important to me that my children as well marry spouses from stable two-parent homes and similar values/habits. (You can learn from a little bit of difference, while too much difference will tear the marriage apart)

    • You’re welcome, Homestead Glamour Girl.

      I agree with everything you said. I am happy that you have met a quality mate and are having a successful family life. That is what all AAW deserve.

  31. Dear Ladies,

    I have not been commenting due to being very busy with other pursuits but I have been reading the conversations here and would like to interject another aspect to consider.

    When others speak of AA culture (or lack thereof), I would ask for all to consider the following: If it has taken thousands of years for Asian groups to establish their cultural practices (without the effect of being forcibly relocated to foreign lands and completely stripped of whatever cultural norms or languages), then is it really any wonder that AAs who tried to create a “fragile culture” post-slavery were not able to maintain it due to structural deficiencies? Namely, that any group where the men have been dominated by other men will see their self-worth in the eyes of the master and what the master does and has. They do not see any worth in who they are or women who look like them and will do everything to create in the image of the master.

    With that as a backdrop, AA BW were always in a losing proposition to try to support a ” fragil culture” that was never structurally sound.

    What is most astounding is that AA BW have survived at all, where many such groups would have perished. That speaks to our resilience against what continues to be a hostile environment for all too many of us.

    Therefore, I think it would be best not compare AAs with other groups because it is comparing apples to oranges. What I believe would be more useful is that for any AA BW who wishes to cross racial and cultural lines for partnerships, needs to learn about that person’s culture with their eyes open to the possible challenges and he should also take the effort to understand the unique circumstances of AA BW in America.

    • Karen,

      Thank you and I completely agree with everything you said. AA particularly AABW should not be compared to anyone else’s culture. Our circumstances are unique. The only halfway comparison one could make would maybe to Native Americans; and there were entire Native American tribes that were completely wiped out when Europeans colonized the Americans. Entire civilizations and cultures were eradicated when faced with similiar challenges that AA’s have faced.

      I can admire other cultures without belittling AA accomplishments. I’m not saying that is what previous commenters have been doing, but I feel it’s important to be proud of AA historical gains. Though I do believe present day ABC has nothing good to offer, it does not negate all the many beneficial cultural aspects “old skool” AA’s had.

    • Karen,

      When I was comparing AA and (basically) Indian cultures, I wasn’t really “comparing” them. I was trying to illustrate THE STRENGTH of the commitment, based upon the length of time that it has been in existence and the length of time the people have been willing to adhere to it and sustain it. As an additional note, I really didn’t say much about the history of Hinduism or the complex structure of Indian culture/society, because there isn’t ENOUGH TIME to feasibly do so in a blog post. Hinduism is originally an Aryan religion. The Aryans conquered the Dravidian peoples and forced this religious, hierarchical structure upon them. As I stated above, my Indian ex (who PROUDLY identified as “Dravidian”) DID NOT accept Aryans as TRUE “Indians”. I’m not going into all of this, because it’s JUST TOO MUCH.

      My comment about AAs not being able to “sustain a culture for 50 years” wasn’t truly about *inadequacy* of AAs to sustain a culture. Actually, the issue for AAs IS NOT a lack of ABILITY; it’s a lack of DESIRE. NO WAY anyone can accomplish what AAs did and not be able to develop/sustain a strong culture. The reason why AAs HAVE NOT done so is because they were willing to allow black men to seek their own PERSONAL gratification at the expense of the people group. (Side note: ASIANS WOULD NOT ALLOW THIS AT ALL.)

      AAs had a framework “of something” that worked well for them. The sad thing is that for BM to stay committed to it, they had to BE FORCED by outside constraints. Once the pressure “let up”, BM were willing to drop everything and “run away”. THIS is why everything is so hard for AAs, particularly AAW. The BM is willing to socialize his sons to kill each other (LITERALLY), poison their communities with drugs, abandon their children and the mothers of their children, HATE their own people and image, WORHSHIP/SACRIFICE for anything and everything that is not “blackness”, JUST so they can wear bling, drive expensive cars, wear “white” labels, drink “white” brands of alcohol, slip themselves between the thighs of anything that doesn’t look like them, and breed children/live with women who look nothing like them, so they can PRETEND to be anything but what they are–BLACK.

      This is all my own PERSONAL opinion, of course. But, THAT’S what I was talking about, when I said AAs have shown they can’t sustain a culture.

  32. @Karen, re:

    “Therefore, I think it would be best not compare AAs with other groups because it is comparing apples to oranges.”


    I’m sorry, but I can’t allow anyone to paint ALL of us AA women with one brush, especially such a damaging brush.

    Since the focus has turned to “CULTURE,” (one of my babies, lol) I will step back in here for a minute. I actually hope I’m interpreting what you said the wrong way, because it’s easy to conclude from your statements that you’re assigning AA women to the “Others” category. I don’t think that was your intent though.

    However, we all have the right to define ourselves. I’m an AA woman and I am NOT an “other.” I, Evia, am the SAME as any other normal, regular woman. I grew up in a structured, regulated, common sense culture. I am a proud product of Old School AA culture. Many other AA women did too. Not sure whether in your analogy you consider AA women to be the “apples” or “oranges,” but if you consider women in other groups to be “apples,” SOME of us AA women are apples too. ALL AA women are not oranges. I’ve encountered some younger AA women who are also among the apples.

    Virtually everything that Formavitae mentioned above that Asians value, AAs down South used to also highly value. Some of them still do. African (Nigerian, Ghanian) men who came to this country, starting back in the 60s used to pursue and want to marry a Southern-raised black women because they saw that we came from a compatible CULTURE that could easily mesh with theirs. This is why ALL of my ex-husbands friends kept after me for years to introduce them to other Southern-raised AA women and they wanted to MARRY these women.

    Formavitae said:

    “1. Asian cultures have a strong belief in honoring parents and respecting elders.”

    AAs, where I grew up did TOO and we raised our sons to have this belief TOO. Therefore, our sons honor and respect us and their elders.

    “2. Asian cultures believe in doing what is best for the family/society over what is best for the individual.”

    AAs, where I grew up did TOO and we raised our sons to have this belief TOO..

    “3. Asians care deeply about bloodlines, family reputation, heritage, religion, and language.”

    AAs, where I grew up did TOO, (except for the language part.) and we raised our sons to care deeply about these pillars of family and community TOO, and if y’all ever met them, you’d see that they do. They are not into organized religion but they are strongly spiritual.

    “4. Asians highly value obedience from children.”

    AAs, where I grew up did TOO and we raised our sons to have this belief TOO.

    “5. The son (particularly eldest son) is expected to provide for the family and protect the family

    AAs, where I grew up had this expectation of eldest sons TOO.and we raised our sons in this way TOO. My oldest son knows that he must assume the role of leadership for the family, since his father is older now.

    Just because a lot of younger AAs have grown up in the wilderness and don’t have these normal values or standards and just because some have–due to laziness, weakness, and cowardice– allowed themselves and their children to become damaged beyond repair does NOT mean that that applies to ALL of us.

    Except for their widespread laziness, weakness, and cowardice, there is no reason why some current-day AAs who have the common sense to realize that they badly need a CULTURE or RUCOSS (reasonably uplifting culture of some sort) can’t resurrect the best practices of the Old School AA culture. As a student of CULTURE, I know that Old School AA culture was actually very similar to other major cultures.

    • “Except for their widespread laziness, weakness, and cowardice, there is no reason why some current-day AAs who have the common sense to realize that they badly need a CULTURE or RUCOSS (reasonably uplifting culture of some sort) can’t resurrect the best practices of the Old School AA culture.”


  33. Lordy, lordy, lordy…I feel the need to “go there.” I will always speak up for my people’s honor.

    I didn’t interpret Karen’s comment as in any way denigrating AA culture. Reasonable minds can differ on how they perceive that comment. I agree with what I interpreted as Karen’s underlying point that it’s not accurate to compare the smaller, extremely SKEWED population of VOLUNTARY immigrants to the U.S. with the masses of new school AAs. As I said in a post:

    Immigrants represent a skewed portion of their societies—the most energetic people. Most people don’t have the courage and energy to get up and leave their home country. Immigration often has the effect of skimming off large portions of the cream of a society. Low-level knuckleheads tend to stay at home, and therefore out of sight of Americans. This is how immigrants get to hide large chunks of their culture’s dirty laundry from outside eyes because, for examples—Delroy The West Indian Idiot never left the Caribbean, and Nnamdi The Nigerian Idiot never left Nigeria.

    Meanwhile, DeShawn The African-American Idiot is on full display on “front street” in his home country, the United States. So, everybody who immigrates to the US can easily see and hear what DeShawn The African-American Idiot is doing on the local television news.”

    Imma go there: Not to mention that it’s clear that there’s PLENTY of dysfunction to be seen in these various Black countries where folks have such wonderfully healthy and productive cultures: Ummm…Boko Haram . . . When are they going to bring back all those kidnapped girls—unharmed and not pregnant from rape?. . . Ummm. . . With all their beautiful cultures of thousands of years, why are they bleaching the h*ll out of their skin? [With said skin-bleaching mania being something that AAs—even new school AAs—generally don’t do.]

    Furthermore, old school, traditional AA culture was NOT limited to the South. The vast majority of my older relatives and the vast majority of their AA friends who grew up in big-city tenements with other AAs on the South Side of Chicago during the 1930s and afterward did not know anything about living in the South. My maternal grandmother’s parents had ran away from the south in the 1920s. My maternal grandmother grew up in Chicago. My paternal grandfather ran away from the south in the early 1930s.

    Until desegregation AAs persevered—mostly intact as a surviving people—through circumstances that have literally destroyed other nations of people. Such as all the long-extinct Native American tribes that USED TO exist throughout the Americas (North, Central, and South America).

    Old school AAs were the people who made it possible and SAFE for large numbers of foreign Blacks (and other nonwhite immigrants) to come to the U.S. Old school AAs’ Civil Rights Movement led to, and influenced, the Immigration and Nationality Act of 1965. Prior to African-Americans’ Civil Rights Movement, White Americans were quite clear about keeping non-Europeans OUT of this country.

    Old school AAs made it possible to see Black faces in the White American media. Imma go there: I notice that Black Brits haven’t been able to get THEIR country’s White entertainment industry to regularly put Black faces on their media. Which is why all these Black Brit actors like Idris Elba had to run all the way across the ocean to the U.S. to impersonate AA characters in order to work as actors.

    Imma go there: Other people are making meals off the fumes and crumbs left from what our old school AA ancestors made possible in this country. Our AA people got a LOT of stuff straightened out in the U.S. during the past 50 years that other Blacks can’t seem to get straightened out in the other countries THEY’VE been living in for at least the past 50 years.

    Imma go there: Haitians have been living in large numbers in the Dominican Republic for over 50 years. Our old school AA ancestors got White American “straight” to a large extent. It appears that Haitian-Dominicans have not been able to set Dominicans “straight.” Not at all. And not in the slightest bit. THIS apparent lynching incident happened in February of this year. This photo is horrific.

    And now the Dominicans are about to give the Haitians who’ve been living there for generations (including for longer than 50 years) “the boot” out of the Dominican Republic with mass expulsions.

    Black Brits have been in the UK for more than 50 years, and Idris Elba and the rest of them have to run to the U.S. to work as actors.

    • Khadija,
      Thank you for understanding the spirit/intent of my comment and stating far better than I could the nature of the African American experience in the U.S.

  34. I will “go there” because I’m not going to sit on the sidelines and allow anyone, even unintentionally, to “other” ALL AA women, when/if I think it’s the type of erroneous generalization that will very likely come back to bite ALL of us in the butt. Too much of that has already happened and we see the devastation it has caused to the image of ALL AA women–me and AA women I love, included. Karen’s comment followed Formavitae’s comments about Asian culture, so my assumption was that she was referencing those comments. My total apologies if her comments weren’t doing that. But it sounded like she was comparing ALL AAs to those Asians with her “apples and oranges” analogy.

    SOME AAs hold and held dear virtually all of those cultural elememts Formavitae said that Asians value and practice. So, why make it seem that ALL of us are so “unique” or such “others” until we can’t be compared to other human beings. That’s my point.

    I don’t know about anyone else here, but I am NOT “unique” like that. I also am not an “other,” and I don’t want to be thought of that way, as if I and any AA woman or girl I love or care about is some sort of “unique” species. lol However, anyone else is free to self-define anyway they choose. I’m not going to allow anyone, in my presence, to pin an erroneous definition on me and those I love. That’s just the way I feel.

    Though I have never lived among Asians in any Asian culture and haven’t had a relationship with any of them, aside from some Iranians friends, I have lived among African Americans in the Deep South and I have lived among Africans in Nigeria and in this country, as well as mingled widely with assorted other Africans. I can’t speak for African Americans in any other part of the country or the cultural ways they practiced, and that’s why I usually try to be careful to limit what I say to what I lived and observed for decades and with whom. I have internalized most of those same cultural elements that Formavitae said that Asians practice, and I didn’t pull them out of the air. They were taught to me by my AA family members. So, if those Asians are “apples,” so am I, and so are SOME other AAs I know.

    I can’t prove that what Formavitae said about Asian culture is practiced by those who never left those Asian countries or not. I would say it rings true, not just for the Asians that have immigrated to this country, but for many others from other older cultures throughout the world, especially when she talks about honor and respect for elders, emphasis on obedience of children, upholding the family’s reputation, lineage, duties of the eldest son, etc.

    And personally, I don’t see anything wrong with putting EVERYBODY’S dirt out on Front St.if that’s what anyone wants to do. Each group needs to own their dirt and get to cleaning it up, if they know what’s good for them. However, I’m only minimally affected by the dirt that’s in anyone’s else house. So, I don’t focus on it. I focus on the dirt in my house because that’s the dirt that is most threatening to me and mine.

  35. Before I make my last (2) posts, I feel the need to clarify my “Culture” post.

    I was in NO WAY trying to present Asian culture as a “perfect”, “ideal”, “above reproach”, “etc.” culture. There are some SERIOUSLY F*CKED UP ASPECTS to these cultures (like setting your wife on fire for not paying a sufficient dowry). I did not go into the level of detail that I COULD have gone into explaining some of the various dimensions of the Asian culture I represented because IT LITERALLY takes TOO MUCH TIME. FURTHERMORE, the aspects I felt most pertinent to AAW were the ones I listed.

    Quick (and meager) synopsis:

    So, many people have heard about the “caste system” in India. Well, it’s based on Hinduism, which I said is originally an Aryan religion. Their caste levels, Varna (which literally means “Color”), has 4 primary groups, which have different levels and functions. The top cast, Brahmin, are the priests, who are considered to be “the head” of Brahma (their universal beings). Who do you think was historically in that spot? The fair-skinned Aryans, of course. Then you have the warrior caste, merchant caste, then Sudra/Dalit caste, who are considered to be “the feet” of Brahma. That’s why this group is known as the “untouchables”, and they have been historically relegated to the margins of society and assigned to do the undesirable jobs of society. Who do you think was historically/initially placed in that spot? The dark-skinned Dravidians, of course. Things are not that clear cut, now. You have Dravidian Brahmin, fair skinned Dravidians, etc. And, the caste system is not the only system of division in Indian society.

    If you know anything about Asian/Middle Eastern cultures, they are particular about body parts. They consider feet to be *FILTHY* which is why they do not like wearing shoes inside the home. When that protester threw his shoes at George Bush, he was making a SIGNIFICANT STATEMENT–MORE than just, “I don’t like you.” Unless you understand the culture, you would probably miss that. This will also help you understand why those who are “the feet” of Brahma would be castigated. They also usually reserve their left hand for “dirty” tasks, like cleaning their bottom after using the commode. If you ever pay attention, you will see that they are able to break bread and gather food with the use of only their right hand.

    As AAW, all of these caste system issues ARE NOT your concern. They ARE NOT your challenge. You cannot “convert” to Hinduism. You can only BE BORN a Hindu. The only issue related to caste you will/may have to deal with is “color”. Aside from that, the primary issues YOU are going to have to be concerned with is the orientation to OBEDIENCE, FAMILY DUTY, BLOODLINE/CULTURE/LANGUAGE PRESERVATION/ETC. THOSE will be YOUR relationship challenges.

    As I stated above, Indians have SO many other cultural/ethnic variables that there are substantial challenges to relationship formation BETWEEN INDIANS. Furthermore, Indian people/society consist of MANY “races”/ethnic groups, religions, languages, sub-cultures. So, as I said above, it goes WAY deeper than that, and it cannot be adequately addressed here. But, that’s just WAY TOO MUCH for AAW to worry about considering.


    As I stated before, I always wanted any BR children I had to identify as “AA” because I did not want them thinking they were “better” than AAs, nor did I want them undermining the political interests of AAs. However, I have dealt with so many different types of AAs of varying complexions and different BRs. I’ve met BRs who are well-adjusted and have good relationships with both families and people groups. I’ve also seen the AAs who have a non-black GREAT-grandparent who are constantly trying to emphasize their “non-blackness” and “difference” from the group (AAs).

    Considering all of the changes that are taking place politically and demographically and acknowledging human volition, I feel that expectations for BRs probably need to be different. I don’t usually think about it very much, because I first care about character development in my children, then I care about ethnic pride and identification. I CERTAINLY don’t want any children of mine “smoking the crack” of *SUPERIORITY*.

    I’ve come to the conclusion that BRs are going to be a very different group of people, in the future. And, I believe that they are going to start identifying with each other more, despite their differences, because they have the commonality of not being completely in one world or another. BRs are no longer going to be “forced” into one slot or another.

    I think my goal is now to have any BR children I have to just have true respect, honor, and identification with their heritage. I want them to protect the truth of their ancestors, but I am not going to focus on making them choose “my” (AA) identification. Someone (I think) I (kind of) like is Jessica Alba. I’m not into her acting or anything. I haven’t seen many of her works. But, I remember an interview she had years ago before having her first child, when she said she was going to be “a strict mom”. That really appealed to me, because I’m tired of this “anything goes” type of parenting and society. So, that’s the first time I thought, “Hmm…I think I like this girl.”

    Anyway, she is half white/half Mexican. And, she is now married to Cash Warren who is half AA/half white. I don’t really know of either of them going out “being champions” for their ethnic groups (I don’t really follow them, either). But, I’ve never really heard of them denying their ancestry. I remember Jessica once saying in an interview that when she was a little girl, she would always run up to different BM and grab on their legs, because she thought they were her father.

    I JUST DON’T KNOW how much BRs of the future are going to identify with any “one” particular group. I think that if we can teach them to respect their ancestors and to help their people and avoid doing any damage, that’s about the best we can do. They are going to have THEIR OWN experiences. They are going to have THEIR OWN views. We can’t really take that away from them. We can’t completely “relate” EITHER. So, my focus is on teaching respect, honor, and preservation of THE TRUTH.

    • I meant to say that I think Jessica and Cash are probably good examples of what more BRs are going to be like in the future–not antagonizing, but “neutral”. I DO think they are going to focus on their unique political interests, however. I also think it’s going to depend upon the cultures they come from and their socialization. But, I see more and more who seem to be comfortable “sitting in the middle”.

  37. I know I said earlier that I had 3 posts I wanted to submit. However, I ended up thinking of something else. So, here it is.


    One thing I TRULY want for AAW is PEACE OF MIND.

    Life is full of challenges, disappointments, injustices, misunderstandings, labor, unfairness, and other not so pleasant things. It is important to find and sustain peace of mind. It’s SO DIFFICULT to actualize goals, find happiness, improve oneself, when constantly being drained by negativity and worry.

    When I first graduated high school, I thought I wanted to be a psychiatrist. I always wanted to help others and to help them overcome internal pain. People always told me I was a good listener. However, I eventually realized that if I were having such personal, intimate sessions with people, it would be very difficult for me not to become emotionally involved. I used to joke to myself that if I were to have a client who were a battered wife, I would start exhibiting symptoms of being a battered wife TOO. My nature is just TOO EMPATHETIC, and I realized that would not be the best career choice for me.

    The value of peace of mind cannot be quantified. The best way for AAW to make progress and achieve their goals is to make sure their “peace of mind” IS SECURED.

    This really helps. IT DOES. And, I hope THE BEST, for you.

  38. One more comment about AAs and culture:

    AAs DID NOT have to “start from scratch”.

    Whatever brought them through slavery and carried them to freedom, whatever helped them through Jim Crow, whatever helped them fight and win the Civil Rights Movement, whatever helped them establish colleges, become teachers abolitionists and orators, whatever helped them establish “Black Wall Street” is WHAT they had.

    AAs. ALREADY. HAD IT. They THREW IT away!

    “Defined” or “undefined”, “acknowledged” or “unacknowledged”, AAs ALREADY HAD what it takes to be a SUCCESSFUL, THRIVING PEOPLE GROUP. Loss of connection to African heritage, languages, cultures is not the reason AAs “are dying” as a collective. AAs “are dying” because THEY WASTED and devalued their own worth and the “talents” (thinking the parable of the Talents in the New Testament) that God gave them and allowed them to develop through their struggles.

    To be honest, IT STILL doesn’t “have to be ‘a loss'”. The ONLY REASON the AA “community” is going to be “a loss” is because THEY WANT to be. They DON’T WANT to exist. Their “actions” are congruent with these “facts”.

    SLAVERY did not conquer AAs. WHITES did not conquer AAs. AAs (AAM) DECIDED they’d rather “transition” into being someone else. And, so, “they’ve lost”.

    • Formavitae:

      You said, ” The ONLY REASON the AA “community” is going to be “a loss” is because THEY WANT to be. They DON’T WANT to exist. Their “actions” are congruent with these “facts”.”

      I think that you hit the nail on the head. This is the mentality that is at the core of the Rachel Dolezal nonsense and black people’s desire to hold up multiracial individuals and blacks with atypical (i.e European or white) features as the standard of blackness. A good number of black people truly hate themselves and wish that they were not black, so they don’t care and actually rejoice about the erasure of black people in mainstream media and politics. On some level, I think they believe that if they can redefine or whitewash the black identity, then they can escape the stigma associated with blackness. This is why it’s almost impossible to get blacks to unite on building our social, economic, and political capital because it would require that we identify and view ourselves as unapologetically black, an entity that is distinct from other racial groups (i.e. white, Asian, etc.) that we may view as “better” or more powerful.

      No amount of marching or protesting is going to give black people the cultural self-respect that they need to rise as a group. This lack of cultural self-respect is also why no amount of social programs, outreach, mentorship, etc. will not produce the mass effect a lot of people envision. Blacks (particularly black men) given opportunities by these initiatives are quick to siphon off any and all financial and personal benefits gained from these programs. For examples, just look at the women BM choose to MARRY and build families with once they’ve made it big in their professional careers. Often, there are several BW (and communities) left behind, who do not reap any of the benefits of investing time and resources into these men.

      • APA,

        A question for you (and any other non-AA Blacks who choose to enter AA conversations on AA blogs about AA identity issues). Let me emphasize that I’m NOT asking these questions to be belligerent. I’m sincerely trying to understand this particular behavior pattern.

        If I remember correctly, both of your parents are Nigerian immigrants. I’m sincerely trying to understand some things about this phenomenon of non-AAs entering AA conversations about AA identity issues on AA blogs:

        (1) How is it that you feel qualified to offer opinions about AA history and AA identity issues? I’d really like to know because I don’t understand this behavior pattern I see with some folks. It would never occur to me to go to West Indian or Nigerian blogs and enter those folks’ conversations about their particular ethnic and/or tribal identity issues and conflicts.

        (2) What’s in it for you to enter these conversations? Entertainment? Trying to be helpful? I’d really like to know.

        (3) When you enter AA conversations on AA blogs about AA identity issues do you feel any ethical obligation to make full disclosure about your non-AA ethnic background? Or are you comfortable with letting the other AA commenters assume that you’re also AA? It would seem to me that if you’re sincerely trying to be helpful, then you’d make full disclosure when entering AA conversations on AA blogs about AA identity issues. I know that if I ever chose to enter Nigerian conversations about Nigerian issues on Nigerian blogs I would feel the obligation to make full disclosure.

        I had wanted to ask you the above questions during an earlier conversation at my blog (in which you did make full disclosure of your ethnicity—but perhaps only because I specifically restricted that particular conversation over there to AAs), but I was focused on keeping a tight rein on the parameters of the conversation:

        [QUOTE]—Khadija Nassif says:
        March 28, 2011 at 10:31 pm

        I appreciate your disclosure—I let your comment through because: (1) It was respectful; and (2) it presents a chance to illustrate something for confused AA readers.

        Like I said in the post itself, this is a nuanced and multilayered issue. You asked whether I felt you “qualified” to participate in this conversation. I’ll answer your question with another set of questions.

        Hypothetically speaking, let’s say that I had the reverse of your experience. Let’s say that both of my parents were AAs (which they are in real life), but let’s also say that they moved to Nigeria before I was born. Let’s go on to say that I and my brother were born in Nigeria and then grew up to adulthood in Nigeria. Here’s my rhetorical (because we all know the answer to this) question:

        Would the above circumstances qualify me or my brother to identify ourselves as Hausa, Igbo, Yoruba, etc.? Would the above circumstances qualify me or my brother to claim to be members of any of these Nigerian ethnic groups?

        Extra bonus question: How does anybody think Nigerians from any of these ethnic groups would feel and respond if I told them that growing up around them automatically made me a member of their ethnic group—despite the fact that I have NO genetic connection whatsover to their bloodlines?

        We all know the answers to these questions. It’s interesting how this stuff never works in reverse. And folks automatically know better than to try—because non-AAs have boundaries.

        So for the purposes of this kind of serious, have-a-voice-in-“tribal”-life-and-death-matters type of conversation, my answer would be no, you’re not AA. You’re not part of our bloodlines. On a social, casual level, I don’t mind you referring to yourself as AA. But no, you’re not an insider for the purposes of this type of serious, our-own-people-only conversation.

        I published your question because it highlights yet another nuance to the issue of AA ethnic identity. There can and often does come a point when some of “them” (foreign-origin Blacks) become totally part of “us” (AAs). Especially when they marry into our bloodlines. That sort of transition takes time.

        If I remember correctly, Min. Farrakhan’s mother was West Indian—I recall hearing him mention that in speeches while imitating her Caribbean accent as he quoted some of the things she used to tell him when he was growing up. Now that I’ve been briefly looking it up, I see some references that his father was also a West Indian immigrant.

        In any event, Min. Farrakhan doesn’t “register” as “foreign-origin” to me, and I’m not giving the side-eye to him having leadership over an AA organization (like I ordinarily would). Here’s why: Unlike a lot of foreign Blacks who come among AAs and immediately want to put themselves OVER AAs in what are supposed to be AA organizations, Min. Farrakhan SERVED—for decades—under AA leadership.

        Unlike so many other folks who only want to “boss” AAs, Min. Farrakhan was willing to take orders from an AA hierarchy and leadership. So, after all of his service under AA leadership and time, he doesn’t feel “foreign” to me even though he’s not part of AA bloodlines. His children and grandchildren are part of AA bloodlines (I’m assuming that his wife is AA), but he’s not.

        Expect Success!

        APA says:
        March 28, 2011 at 11:49 pm
        As to whether Nigerians would consider a person born in their country, but whose parents are originally from the U.S., as a full-blown Nigerian, I believe that many Nigerians would hold the same opinion as you. It’s okay for the person to identify as a Nigerian ethnic group because they can speak the native language and understand and appreciate the culture. However, they would make a distinction between such a person and a Nigerian, who had Nigerian parents, when it comes to more serious matters. In fact, many Nigerians differentiate between children, like me, who grew up abroad, but have Nigerian parents, and children born and raised in Nigeria. They also differentiate between the different ethnic groups/regions.

        So I can definitely see where you coming from. I’m going to sit and listen for the rest of the conversation.

        Zoopath says:
        March 29, 2011 at 8:12 am
        @APA: I’m trying to remember the last time nonwhite/nonAA person demonstrated the type of such respect and empathy for AA ethnic boundaries that you have shown with your comments. You demonstrate understanding of our situation and could totally see someone with a similar grasp of the situation insisting on being regarded as an insider. And yet you didn’t do that at all. I can’t think of a previous conversation on any forum or blog that I’ve observed this phenomenon. That’s really quite disturbing now that I think about it.

        @Khadija: Thanks for letting the APA’s comment through so that I could least see such and rare event with my own eyes.

        Khadija Nassif says:
        March 29, 2011 at 9:08 am

        You’re welcome!

        I know what you mean. Like an earlier sane hair conversation that took place here, seeing that was like watching a unicorn gently prance across the field.

        I’ve had to delete a couple of comments from some non-AA folks who assumed it would be okay for them to barge into this conversation. Even though I explicitly said not to do that at the very beginning of the post.

        Yes, the (unfortunately quite rare) way that APA handled that demonstrates that she’s actually capable of seeing us from the inside as we see ourselves. And understanding for us the same things she understands for her own folks. Which is the mark of true fellowship.

        As the Prohpet Muhammad (PBUH) described true fellowiship: wanting for your brother (in faith) the same things you want for yourself.

        Most of these other people come to AAs with the view that there’s one set of things that are appropriate for them. And a lesser, inferior set of things that are appropriate for AAs. This reminds me of when I had to check one of these disrespectful foreign Blacks during a post at the previous blog, Beware of Advice From Outsiders Who Want You to Do As They SAY, and NOT as They DID For Themselves. This broad had arrogantly tried to shout down AA women who argued in favor of fleeing Black residential areas during several conversations at an AA woman’s blog!

        There’s a whole of bunch of West Indians and Africans who want to tell AA women that what was good for these immigrants (leaving their Black countries in search of a better life in the majority-White US) is NOT appropriate for AA women (running for our lives out of Black residential areas—even though OUR ancestors built this country—and the ENTIRE country is part of our birthright).

        Not only was that hypocritical, but it was insulting. The message was, “You AA n*gger heifers must stay and die in US Black residential areas (for my amusement). But me and my fellow Caribbeans are free to do whatever works best for us—including leaving our Black countries to reap the benefits of living in majority-White America.”

        Then there was the West Indian-origin Negro male who appropriated the AA historical figure Harriet Tubman for himself, and threw her name around while disparaging the idea of AA women saving their lives by leaving Black residential areas.

        Then there was the Nigerian chick (who I banned from this blog—every once in a while she tries to ignore the fact that she’s been banned by submitting comments that I of course delete) who felt entitled to quibble about African-Americans calling ourselves “Americans.” As if she and other outsiders get to veto the decisions AAs make about how we choose to identify ourselves.

        But as I’ve said all along, the problem isn’t with these foreign Blacks. The problem is that AAs routinely fail to set and enforce boundaries with other people. These other people only do what we LET them do. That’s not their fault, that’s on us.

        Expect Success![END QUOTE]—

      • As an aside to my questions to APA (above), here are 2 Africa-related news stories, [AA] friends and I have been discussing:

        Exhibit #1—When “motherland” fantasies go horribly wrong for AAs:
        “Ex-Detroit activist, 75, and her sister slain in Ghana”

        Granted, the very same atrocity could’ve happened in any American Blackistan. I’m just extra disgusted by the failed idealism involved in these sorts of atrocities. For those who are interested in such matters, please read through this Lipstick Alley discussion about these murders.

        You need to read through the entire discussion to understand all the relevant background about the atrocity (particular the comments by commenters named Sofie and Mrs. Henson).

        Because the conversation is VERY educational about several nuances:

        (1) about the dangers of having romantic solidarity/unity fantasies regarding other Black folks;

        (2) about how precious American stability (including respect for the rule of law and respect for property rights) is, no matter how much AAs complain about racism in the U.S.;

        (3) about how a previous foreign Black dictator/president/prime minister/whatever can make promises of citizenship for AAs (similar to how Israel does with welcoming Jews from around the planet) and it means less than NOTHING to the local people;

        (4) about how as a commenter named SaLiLi said: —“They should have just went there to live like expats in a western enclave. They should have never tried to integrate into their society unless they married into a family bc at least then they would have had some protection.”—

        Exhbit #2 The ongoing Boko Haram disaster.
        “The girl who escaped from Boko Haram”

        Note that a Hindustani-looking woman reporter is over there playing “Privileged WW Out In The Field” with the Nigerian girl who’s the subject of the story.

        Here’s my ultimate point: I want you silent AA readers to think through some nuances.

        Generally, when AAs talk about foreign Black issues/problems or issues that take place in foreign Black countries, we tend to do so with a “This is awful/unjust/tragic—how can we help?” tone of voice. The way many AABW did knee-jerk, UN-requested caping in support of the Nigerian girls kidnapped by Boko Haram. The way many AABW did knee-jerk, UN-requested caping in support of Hatians who are about to face mass expulsions from the Dominican Republic. We caped in support of Black South Africans during apartheid (I was part of these mass caping demonstrations back in that day). And so on. Forever and a day.

        We’re also quick to assign blame for their own misfortune (or murders in this case) to those other AAs who suffer a tragedy or atrocity in foreign Black countries. [With questions about whether or not the aggrieved AAs took the time to learn the language, learn the culture, etc., etc.]

        But what we generally don’t do is jump into West Indian and African conversations to tell them about their cultural deficits that are causing their modern-day problems and suffering. {rhetorical question} Why don’t more AAs engage in the same behaviors that these other folks engage in?

        Maybe we should. Maybe I should do some blog posts (and open the comment section) to discuss what went horribly wrong in Nigerian culture(s) to create a monstrosity like Boko Haram. And why the odds are that they won’t be able to fix their problems. The same for discussing what went horribly wrong with Haitian culture and why Haiti will most likely always be “the abyss” in terms of suffering in the Western Hemisphere. If I did this, I’d solicit comments specifically from AAs to discuss and analyze these international issues.

        I don’t know. I’m seriously thinking about it. {shrug}

        • Studying African history “cured” me of any “motherland fantasies”, though I would not say I ever really had any, since I’ve never been an “anti-US”-type of AA. But, the pressure from other (so-called) “pro-black” AAs to have this idealized notion of pan-African solidarity is something I’ve felt, in the past.

          My thoughts related to your “nuances” list:

          1. Africans helped to capture and sell into slavery those who would later become the ancestors of AAs. YES, I’ve heard how the system of servitude was different in Africa. But, to me, that’s still no excuse/justification for what they did–PARTICULARLY, capturing and selling your people to OUTSIDERS.
          Furthermore, when I asked my professor if they taught any AA history courses, they said, No, they only teach African history. Ok. I know you have the right to specialize in whatever area you want. But, why should *I* be so concerned about learning/understanding YOUR history, when *you* have no interest/concern about learning/understanding MINE?

          2. Studying Latin American government helped me TRULY realize and APPRECIATE what I have as an American citizen. Having a military that is willing to overthrow the government is NO JOKE.

          I remember when we studied Chile and the military coup led by Pinochet. We watched actual video of protest demonstrations in the country, and it was ??? I can’t even think of an appropriate word. But, you realized the climax everything was leading to, though the people didn’t at the time. They had NO CLUE. Then, we watched actual video of the bombing of the Presidential Palace, and it was SO. SCARY.

          Can you imagine if the Air Force just decided to start bombing the White House to overthrow Obama, and the Army/Marines shut down the streets and civilian activity? Can you IMAGINE going from being led by the President to being led by the military commander after he had bombed the White House, to take over, and led the President to commit suicide?

          After he took over, Pinochet shut everything and everybody DOWN. He rounded up, tortured, and murdered THOUSANDS of people–including a professor from my university’s political science department. When he ended his dictatorship, he had restructured the government in such a way that the military has enough autonomy to basically take over the government again, should they ever feel they need to.


          And, you want to “submit” to all of these foreign influences and “curb” the U.S. position as a “Superpower”?

          3. Even if offered, what does it “MEAN” and what do you “TRULY GET”?

          4. A rule that I have for myself is never to marry a person whose country I don’t want to visit. If I don’t feel comfortable having my children go there or trust them with your people (family), I’m not going to be with you.
          And, I, honestly, wouldn’t even try the “Western expat” strategy, because I’m NOT WHITE and REALIZE that I will not be extended the same benefits, protections, and deference.

          I normally don’t go into other people’s spaces to challenge them. And, usually the only “challenges” I’m interested in are those that are going to push forward the progress of my own group/area of interest. Furthermore, I prefer to “study before I speak”. So, while I am disinclined to enter another’s space to critique their society, if I were studying a political science class related to the topic, I’d be more open to discourse and analysis.

          But, that’s just ME.

          If you decide to go for it, tell us about your experience. Lol.

    • You are bringing IT! I agree 1000%! The vast majority of AAs as AAs. No one is tricking us, or stealing from us, or taking anything away from us that WE don’t want them to have. A lot of AAs feel GOOD that other folks want what we have. As a matter of fact, plenty of AAs complain, protest, and get ready to throw down when/if others won’t allow us to give them our money, or grumble about how others won’t participate in things we do. The fact is that not enough AAs feel “sufficient” inside. And we shouldn’t blame anyone else for that.

      Unlike some of you, I’ve already done my grieving years ago about the demise of AAs because I keep looking at the RUCOSS indicator. I know that without a RUCOSS, it’s a done deal. There is no other way and I don’t ever hear any AAs talking about resurrecting those best practices of AA culture, aside from me. Lol There will always be black-blacks in this country, but without a RUCOSS, AAs as an official functioning group are gone.

      I have been blessed to have seen a virtual full cycle of AA functioning “from the outhouse to the White House.” or from great self-sufficiency and numerous exhibitions of racial pride almost 24-7 to the massive, abject dependency and group self-loathing of today.

      Looking back, I’m convinced that the mother of all mistakes occurred inside the relationship between AA women and AA men during the Civil Rights movement days because AA women were doing relatively fine before then. Yes, AA men were acting decent in those days mainly because they knew they needed AA women, but without realizing it, AA women dropped the ball.

      Not blaming AA women, but AA women LOVED AA men way, way, way too much! Not talking about their sons; I’m talking about “their man.” The worst part about that was they never knew or understood AA men. AA women STILL don’t know or understand them. But AA men knew/know and understood and still understand AA women. That’s why it’s so easy for them to play AA women. AA women, however, can barely get anything from AA men–because the overwhelming majority of AA women do NOT know or understand them.

      My mother told me many times: “NEVER love ANY man more than he loves you.” The second a woman does that, she’s finished, in the overwhelming most of cases. And we can all help who we love. No sensible person just “falls in love.” We DECIDE who we can and will love.

      Here’s what I’m convinced would have changed the whole dynamic between AA males and females. Back in the late 60s and 70s when AA men first started degrading AA women publicly and trading AA women in for other women, (Wilt Chamberlain, Amiri Baraka, Wesley Snipes, etc.) a large portion of AA women should have done a complete 180 away from AA men, the same as we see Asian women doing with their men. I know that some of y’all will say that AA women don’t have the same cards as Asian women, but that is just NOT true because ALL women have the female card. The only reason so many AA women today think they can’t do what Asian women have done is because they are STILL seeing themselves through eyes that have been “infected” by self-loathing AA men and their many devoted female followers. Whereas Asian women learned how to use their female card to move on out or move on up, too many AA women I encounter online and offline still stubbornly refuse to learn to use theirs, AND they embrace their infectors. So they cling to the notion that AA men are just a little confused now, but will get tired of these other women and “come back home.”

    • APA, Evia, and others,

      We are observing AAs WILLFUL self-destruction. POINT BLANK. I could keep “talking and talking” about these matters. But, what I would rather do INSTEAD is show how it is possible for AAs of today, of various challenging circumstances, to apply the principles and values of THEIR ANCESTORS and SUCCEED. Too many people want to talk about how much “things were different back then”. Well, yeah….they WERE different. They were MUCH HARDER. But, I am one who firmly believes that GOOD, SOLID, PRINCIPLES stand the test (and challenges) of time.

      I want to present Booker T. Washington’s great granddaughter, as an example. I read an article about her several years ago, and I was inspired by the way in which reaching back to the teachings of her grandfather transformed her life in AMAZING WAYS. I am linking and attaching a couple of articles about her as well as her website address (

      “BTW’s great-granddaughter: ‘Rising Up from the Blood’

      Book review: Raised on a rough side of Oakland, Calif. by a single-mother who never mentioned their famous forbear, BTW’s heir has triumphed over the odds.

      Kam Williams | 3/25/2015, 12:46 p.m.

      Despite being a direct descendant of Booker T. Washington, Sarah Washington O’Neal wasn’t born with a silver spoon in her mouth. Quite the contrary, she and her big brother James were raised on a rough side of Oakland, California by a single-mother who never mentioned their famous forbear. Perhaps she was ashamed by her relatively-lowly station and having to hold two jobs just to keep a roof over their heads after being abandoned by her husband.

      The absence of a father figure would have a profound effect on Sarah, who ended up involved with a series of inappropriate partners. This was reflected in her picking bad boys who abused, cheated on, exploited, beat and/or raped her. That futile search for male validation started when she was molested at the age of 9, an event triggering a rapid descent leading to an unplanned pregnancy by the time she was 15.

      Sarah’s baby-daddy neither stuck around to raise Mario Jr., nor paid much in terms of child support, which meant the financial burden of the baby first fell squarely on the shoulders of her already cash-strapped mom. And when that responsibility proved too much for the beleaguered grandmother, the troubled teen was forced to fend for herself and the infant on her own.

      Consequently, she soon became dependent on government subsidies like welfare, food stamps, public housing and Social Security death benefits (after her father passed away prematurely). Meanwhile, between her substance abuse problems (alcohol, weed, coke) and poor choice of men, it was little wonder that she had another child out-of-wedlock just a half-dozen years later.

      Sarah got her act together after attending a Booker T. Washington family reunion, but not before having been tested in more ways than the Biblical character Job. Thanks to a combination of Christianity and psychotherapy, she finally found a righteous path once and for all.

      A faith-based resolve has served Sarah well ever since, and she and husband Anthony Rush are happily married and raising a beautiful blended family. Her triumph over the odds is recounted in revealing fashion in “Rising Up from the Blood,” a mesmerizing memoir that reads like the literary equivalent of a TV soap opera.

      Besides Sarah’s personal story, this riveting autobiography includes a family photo album containing snapshots of Booker T. and the rest of her relatives, as well as snippets of sound advice for other lost souls looking to turn their lives around. An empowering opus by a thriving survivor who has ultimately proven herself deserving of her very impressive family pedigree.

      Excerpt: Preface (pages 1-3)

      “I am proud and honored to be the great-granddaughter of Booker T. Washington. The day I went to my first Washington family reunion, I had no idea how dramatically my reality was about to change…

      “When I first stepped foot on the campus of the renowned Tuskegee University, something magical happened… I had an epiphany and was immediately inspired to improve my life.

      “Prior to the reunion, I was going in the wrong direction… I didn’t realize from whence I came… By the time I was 16, I had become a lost soul, confused about life.

      “It wasn’t until I arrived in Tuskegee for the first time in my life that I would bear witness to my foundation—a foundation that was there all along. That’s when I began to live on purpose. It is also why I now feel a burning obligation to share my story…

      “It is my hope that this book will empower others to change unhealthy mindsets, increase levels of self-worth, and instill a healthy sense of self-love and self-respect within.”

      “Rising Up from the Blood

      “A Legacy Reclaimed, a Bridge Forward”

      by Sarah Washington O’Neal Rush


      “Great-Granddaughter of Booker T. Washington Shares Her Powerful Story

      Armed with her latest book, “Rising Up From the Blood: A Legacy Reclaimed, A Bridge Forward,” Sarah Washington O’Neal Rush is on a mission to empower others to rise up from their blood, tell their own story, and reclaim their legacy.

      Mar 09, 2015, 08:38 ET from Sarah Rush

      SAN LORENZO, Calif., March 9, 2015 /PRNewswire/ — In addition to Women’s History Month 2015, this year marks 150 years since the end of chattel slavery in America, and 100 years since the death of Booker T. Washington—former slave turned famous educator, founder of Tuskegee University, and the most influential African-American leader of his time. In commemoration of these three significant events in American history, Booker T. Washington’s great-granddaughter, Sarah Washington O’Neal Rush, is on a mission to incite hope and create positive change across America with her latest book, “Rising Up From the Blood: A Legacy Reclaimed, A Bridge Forward.”

      Photo –
      Photo –

      This incredible tell-all true story, sheds light on how one remarkable woman, the last born of Washington’s great-grandchildren, experienced growing up near poverty, and “at-risk” in Oakland, California with only hints of her famous “blue-blood” legacy. Yet, she was able to rise above her circumstances—but not until she learned how her great-grandfather was able to rise above slavery to become the most influential black leader of the late 19th and early 20th centuries.

      The courage of Booker T.’s mother, Jane, who was born a slave, and the earnestness of Sarah’s mother, the late Agnes Louise Washington, reinforce the lessons woven throughout this book. Sarah shares openly about her life, from falling and failing, to rising and achieving. Today, equipped with wisdom and personal experience, this author, motivational speaker, and educator brilliantly tells her story.

      When recently asked if it was difficult to write her story with such candidness, Sarah said, “It was difficult because there is a lot in this book that I have never shared with anyone before. I was afraid of being judged harshly. But, my great-grandfather once said, ‘Success is to be measured not so much by the position that one has reached in life as by the obstacles which he has overcome.’ With that in mind, I wrote my autobiography. Now, every time someone tells me how my story has empowered them to rise, achieve, and heal, I know that writing my story was not in vain.”

      This book is not only an excellent read, but it is a motivational tool, especially for women, college students, urban youth, educators, counselors, and social workers.

      “Rising Up From the Blood: A Legacy Reclaimed, A Bridge Forward,” by Sarah Washington O’Neal Rush, with Yvonne Rose, and a forward by Tony Rose, NAACP Image Award Winner for Outstanding Literature, is available now on and Personalized autographed copies are available only at

      Extraordinary Legacy Empowerment Network
      Media contact:
      Angel Thrash

      SOURCE Sarah Rush”

      • This is a wonderful piece about Sarah Washington Oneal, but it also is a perfect example of why it’s so critically important to thoroughly VET men with first your head, NOT your heart. This continues to be a major failing among AA women. Out of the multi-millions of men on earth who would make at least average quality husbands and GOOD fathers, so many AA women even in 2015 continue to trample the better quality of men to get to a no-quality, irresponsible man. SMH

        l will continue to point out this unnecessary mistake that so many AA women make because having a quality mate and father for one’s children is SO critical. It’s the key reason why so many AA women will struggle unnecessarily and for so long and most will not win that struggle since only superwomen win the struggle, alone. The overwhelming most of us are not superwomen. A quality man greatly elevates a woman’s life and her children’s lives by about 5000% and in immeasurable ways–too many to list, Every day, Darren proves this to me and my ex-husband lurks in the periphery, proving it too. And in my life, I can clearly see how those benefits are trickling down to my grandchildren.The race or ethnicity of the man is NOT the key. It’s whether he’s QUALITY and what he contributes. That trumps everything.

        The MAIN reason I decided to begin posting my pics online a few years ago and continue to point to my UB (unambiguously black) looks is because I’ve continued to detect a subtext in certain online discussions that a black woman has to be light-skinned or have Euro features or somehow have super average looks (if she’s darkskinned meaning, look something like Gabrielle Union) in order to marry well and secure a good father for her children. This is NOT true, at all. I hit the jackpot both times with the men I chose or allowed to choose me.

        It bears repeating that many AA women can’t believe that the less-than way many of them think about themselves is simply a part of the infection that many AA men and their black female followers have made sure to spread among the masses of AA women. I know that some of the readers here will claim they never believed that, but many of you who want marriage would be married well by now if you didn’t believe it. So, I consider this a GREAT evil. I’ve tried to combat this by using my pics and even my life offline because that’s a key reason why I invited 20 of the regular commenters on the BWE sites to come to our farm to meet me a couple of years ago. I realize that the 15 women who came really wanted to see me and discover if I was real or not lying about my life. LOL

        Anyway, my points fit into this discussion about black bi-raciality because the main reason why SOME UB women are “proud” supporters of black-biracial women or stand back and allow them to move (or push them!!!!) to the front of the line is because AAmen and similar black men and their numerous slavish female followers (trust me, ALL of whom are DBRs) consider these women to be “Ideal” black women–as someone said above. Tragic! This has become very blatant these days.

        But for a woman like me who has hit the mating and marriage jackpot twice and did it much better, faster, and with more style than black biracial women I’ve encountered or even hear of, biracial women have never fazed me. For ex., I’ve done much, much better than Halle Berry because no man has ever hit me and made me lose 80% of my hearing. When I’ve been asked during the years to talk about biracialness on my Ezine, I always declined because black biracials are just ordinary folks to me, and not of any particular interest.

        And, here’s one last thing I just have to speak on. The point was made earlier that the children of bm-ww will just “automatically” get privileges due to their white mom, and therefore have a better life than the children of bw-wm. IMO, that point should have been sliced and diced or VETTED to the core because it’s not true at all, IMO and in my experience. Yes, some of the children will get privileges, but the outcome of the children or whether they will have better lives depends mostly on the QUALITY of the mother, her background, her values, her class–NOT her race. It also depends a whole lot on the quality of the father. Or maybe, it’s been accepted by typical commenters here that bw, in general, are just not of the quality as ww, or that ww are higher quality, in general? I totally disagree with that. Sorry, I can’t let that slide in as a “truth.” Obviously, I don’t see whites in that same vein. Maybe, this is because I vet white women and men as individuals.

        • Yes. The original article I read about her years ago brought my heart SUCH JOY. The details of the one I posted were more in depth than what I had previously read. My heart ACHED for her, because some of the “crap” described was SIMILAR TO SLAVERY! I’M SO GLAD she reached back and pulled herself together.

          I agree with what you said about the belief many AAW have regarding their need to look “other” in order to attract a quality (non-black) man. I must say, from my OWN personal experience, THIS IS NOT TRUE. Since I dealt with so many years of being overlooked by black guys for white girls (and saw light-skinned girls experiencing the same), and since I never dated before graduating high school, I never realized/thought that guys really liked/were attracted to me. It was only after I left for college and noticed the attention I was receiving from such a VARIED group of men, I realized that men MUST be attracted to me and I must not “look too bad”. Otherwise, how could I attract so many different types of people?

          This is why I wanted to share what I’ve been seeing going on in my environment. AAW/G (girls) are constantly pressured to believe that they are not as desirable as other groups and that men from other groups would never select an AAW/G over their own. So many people are invested in keeping the self-esteem of AAW/G depressed.

          I agree with you that the quality of man is SO IMPORTANT. I ALSO agree with previous commenters who discussed different forms of value a man can offer to a woman’s life (e.g. hunting, fixing things, etc.). This is SO TRUE. Additionally, I have seen men who don’t have “high-powered” careers but have STRONG WORK ETHICS and are devoted to their children and families.

          It is possible for a woman to have a good quality partner and father for her children at various economic levels. Not ALL people are going to be financially “rich”. But, there are many people whose lives ABOUND with *intangible* wealth. Too many AAW/G have never had the experience of that security, and they don’t know how to obtain it. They FIRST need to believe IT’S AVAILABLE for them, otherwise they will be disinclined to try to EVEN HOPE for it.

        • Evia said:
          …And, here’s one last thing I just have to speak on. The point was made earlier that the children of bm-ww will just “automatically” get privileges due to their white mom, and therefore have a better life than the children of bw-wm. IMO, that point should have been sliced and diced or VETTED to the core because it’s not true at all, IMO and in my experience.

          Yep. The assertion that the child of a ww/bm would automatically be better placed/better regarded socially is so ridiculous as to be dismissed out of hand.

          I actually laughed when I read that, and started composing a response. (Because lots of ridiculous assertions get swallowed whole by the naive, inexperienced, or uninformed)

          It’s still on an untitled word document. Thanks for the reminder.

  39. I’m sorry, but I HAD to share this too. As I am one big on “paradigms”, I believe it is important for AAs to learn about the paradigms of their ancestors. TOO MANY are getting their perspectives and influences from popular culture, which SOLELY EXISTS to capitalize on one’s resources.

    Reading about Washington’s great-granddaughter prompted me to visit the website for Tuskegee University. In their “Legacy of Fame” section, they provide information about Dr. George Washington Carver. I remember learning about him and his peanut experiments. Anyway, they provide a link to his favorite poem. And, I, being a lover of poetry, absolutely wanted to read what would appeal to Dr. Carver. HERE IT IS.

    Carver’s Favorite Poem, “Equipment”

    “EQUIPMENT” by Edgar A. Guest was Dr. Carver’s favorite poem; he can be heard reciting it at an audio station at the George Washington Carver Museum . An inspiring video of his life can also be viewed along with a superb collection of artifacts demonstrating his achievements. The Carver Museum and TheOaks, home of Booker T. Washington, comprise a National Historic District, on the Tuskegee University campus.


    Figure it out for yourself, my lad,
    You’ve all that the greatest of men have had,
    Two arms, two hands, two legs, two eyes
    And a brain to use if you would be wise.
    With this equipment they all began,
    So start for the top and say, “I can.”

    Look them over, the wise and great
    They take their food from a common plate,
    And similar knives and forks they use,
    With similar laces they tie their shoes.
    The world considers them brave and smart,
    But you’ve all they had when they made their start.

    You can triumph and come to skill,
    You can be great if you only will.
    You’re well equipped for what fight you choose,
    You have legs and arms and a brain to use,
    And the man who has risen great deeds to do
    Began his life with no more than you.

    You are the handicap you must face,
    You are the one who must choose your place,
    You must say where you want to go,
    How much you will study the truth to know.
    God has equipped you for life, but He
    Lets you decide what you want to be.

    Courage must come from the soul within,
    The man must furnish the will to win.
    So figure it out for yourself, my lad.
    You were born with all that the great have had,
    With your equipment they all began,
    Get hold of yourself and say: “I can.”

    –Edgar A. Guest


  40. Khadija:

    You said:
    “(1) How is it that you feel qualified to offer opinions about AA history and AA identity issues? I’d really like to know because I don’t understand this behavior pattern I see with some folks. It would never occur to me to go to West Indian or Nigerian blogs and enter those folks’ conversations about their particular ethnic and/or tribal identity issues and conflicts.

    (2) What’s in it for you to enter these conversations? Entertainment? Trying to be helpful? I’d really like to know.

    (3) When you enter AA conversations on AA blogs about AA identity issues do you feel any ethical obligation to make full disclosure about your non-AA ethnic background? Or are you comfortable with letting the other AA commenters assume that you’re also AA?…”

    My reply:
    I have stated in this forum and others (under the same screen name) that both of my parents are Nigerians. I’m not sure why this is an issue now. My comments were not rude or disrespectful to African-Americans. I’m also curious as to why I am being singled out because I know that I’m not the only person with immigrant parents who has commented on this site. There are other commenters who are non-AA on this thread who have been more vocal and opinionated than me. I have left a few posts here and on Neecy’s Nest where I honestly and openly criticized some of the ills of my parents home country, so I’m not here to fool anyone as your post above seems to be implying. I also do not have ill intentions as your previous post seems to be implying.

    Anyways to answer your question, I’m not just for “entertainment” or to fool anyone into thinking that I have two, born-and-raised-in-the-US, black parents like Rachel Dolezal. I’m here because I see myself as part of the AA (as well as the Nigerian) struggle and would like to share ideas and strategies to elevate BW as a whole. I support AA BW and other BW across the diaspora, and I want to see them succeed. This is my only reason why I am here.

    If you are worried about non-AA in BWE conservations, it ain’t me that you need to be worried about. You need to be worried about the others who have never identified themselves. So far, I’ve only seen 2 or 3 women besides me who have mentioned their origins in this forum as well as others and believe me there are more on this forum. I’m not the one that you really need to be concerned about.

    • APA, I have been in a similar situation to the one you find yourself in here many times during the decades I was married to my ex-husband. I really didn’t fully understand beyond a surface level many of the deeper Nigerian experiences. Not saying that your situation is the exact same because I never lived the actual life of a Nigerian woman, and truthfully I didn’t want to do so. Because of my husband, I was always treated delicately and with respect, like a “special foreigner.” Usually, when I offered my 2 cents about really deep issues, they would kind of laugh me off as if I were a silly child. LOL! However, when I offered them something valuable, they jumped on it. That’s one of the things I really like about Nigerians. They will almost literally take notes and they will use what you give them instantly if they can. And if they lose the notes, they will almost track you down to get you to give them the notes again. LOL!

      And since you’re the child of Nigerians, you know that Nigerians constantly talk about their issues and problems any time they come together. All of the time. Whew! They’d be laughing while they talked about this or that issue, but that used to be stressful to me because the problems and talk about the problems went on and on, and on everywhere. I don’t know whether this is the case among younger Nigerians though. I admit that’s one of the things I’m happy I don’t have to hear about on a regular basis anymore. One of the many things I enjoy about being with Darren is that his ethnicity of folks rarely ever discuss their ethnic group problems at gatherings, or in public. Life is so much less stressful, and so much more tranquil with him.

      So, it’s interesting that you’d want to come into the middle of AA women’s problems, though I realize that your situation is not exactly like mine was since you experience some of AA women’s problems whereas, I didn’t have to experience any of Nigerian women’s problems since I was personally in a “special” class. Your situation is much more similar to my sons. Y’all are actually a THIRD culture, meaning you are not who your parents are and neither are you AAs. I’ve even suggested to my sons that many of y’all need to form your own Third Culture blogs or forums.

    • APA,

      Let me try to be clear about this: I’m not interested in “singling out” anybody. I’m asking these questions because I genuinely don’t understand this behavior pattern of non-AAs jumping into conversations at AA blogs that are specifically dealing with AA identity issues. At all.

      What I do know for sure is that this behavior pattern is ONE-SIDED, which always raises red flags for me. One-sided interactions are almost always operating at one party’s expense and/or to one party’s detriment.

      There are those folks’ whose comments are rude and/or disrespectful. I never said that your comments were disrespectful. They haven’t been, from what I’ve seen. And as far as the other 2-3 non-AA-origin women you referenced in your comment:

      (1) I don’t know who these women are, off the top of my head (and I’m not really interested in learning who they are for the purposes of this particular conversation); and

      (2) this isn’t my blog—I’m very conscious of the fact that I’m guest in OLS’ online “home” here, and it’s not my place to police somebody else’s home (which was never my intent in the first place with these questions—I’m not trying to “police” anything here, I’m just trying to understand this behavior pattern); and

      (3) there are some topics that are common to ALL Black folks. Therefore, I don’t view all participation by non-AA Blacks in AA blog conversations as always being problematic.

      Nevertheless, AA identity issue are NOT one of those topics that’s common to all Black folks.

      Which is why I don’t understand the *one-sided* phenomenon of non-AA Blacks feeling so eager and comfy about jumping into conversations at AA blogs that are specifically dealing with AA identity issues. If I decided to jump into Nigerian discussions about Nigerian tribal issues and relations, I’m pretty sure folks would challenge the motives, value and knowledge-base of my intrusion into those particular conversations. And they should. Just because I verbally say that I feel like I’m part of the Nigerian struggle doesn’t mean that my participation would be helpful to the Nigerians who are trying to sort out Nigerian-specific issues in that discussion.

      Which is why I’m sincerely asking you:

      How is it that you feel qualified to offer opinions about AA history and AA identity issues?

      When you step into conversations at AA blogs that are specifically dealing with AA identity issues, what are you basing your commentary on?

      I really would like to know.

      Not every reader knows what you might have previously said in terms of identifying your non-AA ethnic origins. There are always new readers who are new to these conversations. If I was going to jump into non-AA Black folks’ discussions about their specific ethnic issues at their ethnic blogs, I would make a point of clearly identifying myself as an AA (so new readers would know the context my comments about their issues are coming from). It seems only fair to do that.

      The conversations at AA BWE-centric blogs that are specifically dealing with AA identity issues are LIFE & DEATH-level of SERIOUS. For real. The success of the BWE movement has already changed the life trajectory of large numbers of AA Black women:

      Pre-BWE, most AABW were [justifiably] too scared to publicly refuse to excuse AA Black males’ many failures and dysfunctions. They were too scared to even think about putting their own interests first. They were too scared to publicly say that they found certain nonblack men (especially WM) attractive. Large numbers of AABW also didn’t feel entitled to even want to be ultra-feminine women who are stay at home wives and mothers. They didn’t even feel that any of this (affirming their femininity, dating and marriage freedom with nonblack men or planning on being a stay at home wife and mother) was even in the realm of realistic possibilities for them.

      I’m saying all this to emphasize how important these AA blog discussions about various AA identity issues are to AABW. The consciousness-raising that AA writers are doing among other AABW is literally saving AA women’s and girls’ lives.

      In order to safely prescribe medicine, a doctor needs to know and understand the patient’s history. It just seems to be incredibly reckless for an outsider to be so eager to jump into these particular types of conversations and offer up random “medication” when they don’t have a thorough knowledge (or in some cases, any knowledge AT ALL) of the patients’ history.

      Like I’ve been saying, I truly don’t understand this one-sided behavior pattern. How does any outsider presume that their opinions are automatically helpful to our “AA struggle” when that outsider is jumping into conversations at AA blogs that are specifically dealing with AA identity issues? How would an outsider have any basis for knowing what they’re talking about in terms of THAT specific type of issue?

      I don’t get it. It feels exactly the same way that “man-splaining” feels when men jump into women’s conversations that are specifically about women’s identity issues. It feels exactly the same way it feels when a WW Who Believes That Her Intake Of Black Male Penis Somehow Makes Her Knowledgeable About AA Black Issues jumps into AABW’s conversations that are specifically about AABW’s identity, issues and concerns.

      Folks’ mileage can and does vary. Some women in these various contexts appear to feel flattered when these various “others” jump into their conversations about AABW-specific issues. I happen to not feel flattered. All I know it that it feels like an intrusion to me. And I don’t understand why:

      (1) So many non-AAs somehow can’t see that their one-sided behavior of jumping into conversations at AA blogs that are specifically dealing with AA identity issues can register as an intrusion? Or why

      (2) So many non-AAs are so eager and comfy to jump into AA conversations at AA blogs that are specifically about AA identity issues?

      I’m just trying to get an understanding here. I guess from what you’re saying, you feel that your commentary at AA blog conversations that are discussing specific AA identity issues is [automatically] helpful even though you’re an outsider to AA identity issues and have no apparent basis for understanding AA identity issues.

      I don’t understand that particular assumption, but okay, . . . I hear you . . .

      • –Let me try to be clear about this: I’m not interested in “singling out” anybody. I’m asking these questions because I genuinely don’t understand this behavior pattern of non-AAs jumping into conversations at AA blogs that are specifically dealing with AA identity issues. At all.

        What I do know for sure is that this behavior pattern is ONE-SIDED, which always raises red flags for me. One-sided interactions are almost always operating at one party’s expense and/or to one party’s detriment.—

        –Just because I verbally say that I feel like I’m part of the Nigerian struggle doesn’t mean that my participation would be helpful to the Nigerians who are trying to sort out Nigerian-specific issues in that discussion.–

        —The conversations at AA BWE-centric blogs that are specifically dealing with AA identity issues are LIFE & DEATH-level of SERIOUS. —

        — I guess from what you’re saying, you feel that your commentary at AA blog conversations that are discussing specific AA identity issues is [automatically] helpful even though you’re an outsider to AA identity issues and have no apparent basis for understanding AA identity issues.—

        I just want to say that I understand your, and everyone else’s, position on the specific definition of AA women, as it pertains to these issues, much better after reading this response. And I just wanted to highlight the parts that particularly stood out to me.

        Thank you for tirelessly addressing the issue. It takes “more” for some of us to have that ah-ha moment.

        • Gina,

          You’re welcome!

          BWE has won the victory. I see LOTS of AABW on “mainstream” AA blogs and sites speaking BWE-based common sense viewpoints and talking points these days. Most of them don’t even know where the concepts and terminology originally came from (from the early BWE blogs), but they’ve incorporated large chunks of BWE concepts into their lives.

          Some parts of the BWE victory are (I believe) irreversible at this point: such as AABW having the freedom to date and marry whoever they choose. Without either: (1) feeling obligated to restrict their dating and marriage options to BM; or (2) feeling that they can’t draw the favorable and respectful attention of quality nonblack men.

          Envy is a powerful motivator, and as AABW see increasing numbers of other “regular, everyday” AABW marrying WELL with nonblack husbands—from other AABW they know to AABW celebrities live Eve who had “baggage”—there’s NO going back to pre-BWE in terms of AABW’s dating and marriage freedom of choice AND opportunity.

          I’m concerned that some other aspects of the BWE victory are fragile and vulnerable. The historical pattern is that it’s so very easy for AAs to go off-course and turn each victory into a new catastrophe. It’s what we’ve collectively done with every single previous victory we’ve won.

          The primary danger as I see it is that most AABW are STILL so very resistant to putting their OWN interests as AABW first and #1. And so very resistant to setting and enforcing boundaries with various categories of “others.” To be frank, the vast majority of us—even those who’ve adopted and succeeded with BWE principles in most major areas of their lives—somehow feel more at ease, at home, and comfortable putting SOMEBODY ELSE’S interests as first and #1.

          The same way we’re totally comfortable with a hair typing numerical system that puts WW’s and Asian women’s straight hair at #1 and our “typical” hair textures as last. [Which I find *very* telling about where the bulk of AABW’s mentalities are at.] We can always find a pretext for putting somebody ELSE’S interests first. Because this is what the bulk of us were raised to do.

          I believe THIS will prove to be the hardest programming to break. Because we wrap it up in (sometimes genuine, non-toxic, non-dysfunctional) love for these various somebody elses. I believe that if we don’t get clear about self-definition, drawing lines in the sand, and putting our OWN interests first, we’ll end up reverting back to mammy mule behavior patterns. The only difference is that we’ll be mammying for biracials as they use our bodies as stepping stones. Just like the other AABW who never abandoned the mammy mule ideologies.

          Similar to how most AA BM Muslims exchanged being willing slaves, servants and water-carriers to WM Christians for being willing slaves, servants and water-carriers for Arabian and Pakistani Muslims.

      • I find that these foreign or non-AAs enter these conversations from a mocking standpoint. Like they show up to school and admonish actual AA’s and to look down on them because where they are from is sooooo much better. (not really)

        That facebook page you all referenced is perfect for that. I noticed that some posts are a beacon call for Nigerian women or whomever to come out of the woodwork and attempt to na-na-booboo Black American women.

        Overall, I don’t trust their perspectives or input as when they do post things about their native country its overwhelmingly positive.

        Or when they need Black American women to man the front lines and get support and the word out as in Boko Harum and the Haitians getting booted, they then post about home country issues. I find that foreign born Black women want to take from AA women while talking badly about us at the same time.

        I also feel these intrusions serve to make them feel better about their own status. i.e. well at least my people aren’t as bad as the Blacks in America.

        Them sticking their nose in and contributing where they have no real perspective or experiences to speak of is very telling.

        • Soul Alive,

          Guurl, I hear you. {still chuckling at the reference to “na na boo boo” and the beacon call}

          Yes, I’ve also noticed The Clarion Call Effect with certain types of posts at the Facebook pages that have been mentioned. It’s really something to behold, because as you noted those chicks come out of the woodwork to engage in na na boo boo.

          I shouldn’t laugh, but the 1st thing that came to mind when you mentioned that “beacon call” effect was a scene from the movie Aliens when the soldiers and Ripley are having a quiet conversation in a room, one soldier sticks his head into a ceiling panel, and sees droves of aliens converging on their position (seemingly in response to a silent beacon). The conversation is over and the aliens start dropping out of the ceiling on top of the hapless soldiers and Ripley.

          From what I’ve seen over the years, my take is that the non-AA Black folks’ participation at AA blogs is about 90-95% na na boo boo and about 5-10% good faith trying to be helpful.

          As I see it, this na na boo boo mess is only possible because of AAs’ confusion and left-over kumbaya brainwashing from our AA misleadership cadre. I say “confusion” because all these non-AAs like the Facebook pages mentioned are flying under the radar under the title “Black” Fill-In-The-Blank. They’re sliding in under the generic “Black” label when they want to preside over discussions among AA Blacks about AA-specific issues.

          And then they get specific when they want to praise and big-up their own ethnic/tribal groups. And since most AAs don’t draw lines in the sand when we talk about AA Black issues, we inadvertently let all these foreign others frolic and play na na boo boo in our discussions about AA Black life and death issues.

          At the end of the day, it’s on us to set and enforce boundaries with folks. And stop discussing issues under the generic “Black” label (which is what all these other folks use as their cover for jumping into our conversations about AA Black-specific issues). More AA Blacks need to start being specific about ethnicity when discussing our particular issues.

        • “Gina
          July 6, 2015 at 3:25 am
          Well… I can’t say that I disagree because…


          One could very well accuse Luvvie of “performing blackness” with her use of AAVE. And some are “calling her out” over chastising AA bloggers when she, herself, is not AA.”

          I find her stance curious as if she’s an ultimate tastemaker and gets to decide what people do with their platforms. I also sense a bit of jealousy and attention whoring shit-starting in those tweets. Like causing an issue where there is none.

          Furthermore, as GGG stated, everyone does not need to be talking about the same issue. Some people need a respite or a safe fun place where they can just be free, have a bit of a laugh. It seems as if this Luvvie character is pushing for all militancy all the time independent of your blogs messaging/purpose.

          And really Black American women need to move away from that. Another non-AA sending out messages that will damage AA women who aren’t sharp enough to notice the railroading attempts.

      • Khadija:

        You say that you don’t want to police my participation on this blog, but you’ve written ~10 paragraphs asking me to explain to you and justify why I’m participating on this blog that does not belong to you.

        You also say that you are not singling me out, but you are only posing this question to me even though Moriah just had a discussion w/ Formavitae a few comments up about how having immigrant parents gives her a unique perspective regarding certain issues. I don’t understand how you can miss that comment, but could unearth comments from your blog from over 6 years ago to start a “discussion” with me, but you are not singling me out, right? Quite frankly, it doesn’t matter what I say because I don’t speak for every non-AA, just like you don’t speak for every AA woman, so I can’t answer your question why non-AAs do the things they do.

        You also said, ” guess from what you’re saying, you feel that your commentary at AA blog conversations that are discussing specific AA identity issues is [automatically] helpful even though you’re an outsider to AA identity issues and have no apparent basis for understanding AA identity issues.

        I don’t understand that particular assumption, but okay, . . . I hear you . . .”

        I don’t believe this, so please stop putting words in my mouth.


        Thank you for your response, but I don’t view myself, and other Nigerians don’t view me as a “third culture”. Both of my parents are Nigerian, so I am considered Nigerian back “home” and here in the US by other Nigerians. I have no confusion regarding my origins or my place in the world. My parents and the surrounding Nigerian community have made it clear that they consider me to be Nigerian and claim me. In fact, I could technically run for and be elected as president of Nigeria since both of my parents are Nigerian due to a loop hole that the elites added some years back in order to allow their children who were born/studied abroad to come back and take over. If I remember correctly, just one parent needs to have been born in Nigeria, so your son could also hold public office in Nigeria as well. Basically, I am not “third culture” and will not be joining any “third culture” movement.

        As well as being Nigerian, I am also very much American because I was born and raised here. The only way other Americans know that I have African heritage is because of my name. If you saw on the street, heard my voice, and watched my mannerisms, there is no way you would be able tell that I was Nigerian or had Nigerian parents. You would most likely just think that I was just a nice black, southern girl.

        I often find that it is others who are more confused about my heritage or how I define myself. Because they’ve only been predominantly raised in one culture, it’s hard for them to imagine how I could view myself as both a black American and Nigerian. They’ve only identified themselves as one way all their life, so they think that I should only view myself in one way. It is almost like black men who cannot understand why black women would choose to prioritize certain women’s issues over certain race issues and even get angry when black women choose to identify with women’s issues.

        I also find what label is acceptable varies from person to person. On this forum, Khadija and others think that I’m non-AA and therefore should not participate in certain conversations. At school, an AA may think that I’m being uppity if I draw attention to the fact that I’m Nigerian. You can’t please everybody. I appreciate the insights from everyone, but at the end of the day, I define who I am and not a stranger online, at school, at work, etc.

        That’s another takeaway from this Rachel Dolezal nonsense. What she did was foul and reprehensible, and I don’t think anyone should stoop to her level of deception, but black women can also learn from her by not allowing anyone to define who they are. Other non-black women (e.g. AW, WW, HW) do what they want, when they want. They don’t wait on others to give them the go ahead or green light before they act. Instead of waiting on others to see us as we want to be seen, we should just go for what we want and live the life that we want. She will probably get a book deal or movie deal out of this foolishness, while capable, talented, and worthy black women everywhere refuse to step out of their comfort zones and lead more abundant lives because of propaganda in the mainstream media and advice from family members, acquaintances, or even strangers. We keep waiting for the tides to change before we make our next move, and it never occurs that we may have to act in order to bring about the change that we seek.

        My final thoughts:

        I will not be participating in discussion on this blog any longer. I believe the consensus is that I should not post here, which is okay with me. I don’t want to go back and forth with other commenters whether I have the right to post my thoughts on a blog or whether my thoughts are less valid because I am a black, non-AA.

        Although, I will say that this has been an eye opening discussion. I’ve always aligned myself with AAs and donated my time and resources to AA professional organizations, causes, initiatives, etc. However, I’m now realizing that maybe I am not truly welcomed in these spaces and therefore I should reconsider how I’ve been allocating my resources. I don’t want to spend time in an organization, forum, or relationships only to find out that I’m not welcomed or viewed as a second class citizen. We often talk about assessing our alliances on BWE blogs, and I feel like this thread has given me a teachable moment. I’ve just come to the realization that I aligned myself and identified with a movement that apparently doesn’t welcome me. I won’t make that mistake again. You live, and you learn.

        • I find your response and so called threat of removing resources…. interesting. If, as you opine you truly were invested in AA’s you would not be copping your “I’m taking my ball and ending the game” attitude. You are free to do what you will with your time and resources, however actual Black American women will not be guilted into allowing you to play along where you have no place.

          Take care of yourself and be well. And thanks for revealing where you truly stand. I appreciate knowing who’s down with my team and who isn’t.

        • APA,

          In response to the points you raised:

          From her earlier comments (being in high school during some point in Obama’s presidency), it sounds like Moriah is VERY young. So, as far as I’m concerned, unless she does some very, very inappropriate, I feel that it’s best to treat her with kid gloves.

          By contrast, I would guess that it’s safe to assume that you’re fully grown at this point in time since 4+ years ago you were apparently able to comprehend why your participation in certain specific TYPES of AA conversations might not be helpful. I said participation in certain specific TYPES of conversations, NOT participation in certain BLOGS. There’s a difference.

          Also, I find it very telling that you can understand how your participation in this type of context might not be helpful when somebody else draws the line in advance (which is what happened 4+ years ago at my blog). But you apparently won’t act in good faith and step back on your own accord.

          From your earlier comment that I quoted, you know that your own Nigerian folks would NOT appreciate this same type of outsider intrusion into their tribal life and death discussions, but you do it to AAs. That’s NOT the behavior of any kind of ally or friend.

          And you apparently won’t act in good faith on your own initiative to prevent others (who don’t know) from assuming that they’re reading and speaking to another AA commenter.

          NONE of that stuff is the behavior of an ally or friend. So I don’t believe that AAs are losing anything to see you go. Based on your behavior, I don’t believe that you ever did (or ever would) contribute anything of value to AAs in the first place. Lots of folks talk that talk on their way out the door.

          You said: —“I don’t want to spend time in an organization, forum, or relationships only to find out that I’m not welcomed or viewed as a second class citizen.”—

          2nd class citizen? What in the world? That’s sounding like the Mexican illegal aliens who seem to think they’re somehow entitled to bust up—uninvited—into somebody ELSE’S country. APA, you’re a GUEST—not any type of “citizen”—at AA blogs and sites. AA blogs and sites are OUR safe spaces to talk about OUR concerns and issues. The same way I would be a guest and NOT any kind of entitled “citizen” at Nigerian blogs.

          I don’t know where you got that “citizen” at AA blogs and forums notion from. It would never occur to me to think I was automatically entitled to claim some type of “citizenship” at foreign Black folks’ blogs in which they’re discussing their foreign Black folks’ issues. That’s some hardcore entitlement mentality. {smh}

          I pulled out that earlier comment from my blog because some folks start telling lies about their background, about what they do and don’t understand, etc. when challenged. I’m not saying that I expected you to do that. Nevertheless, I like to come with documentation of the things I’m talking about when I raise sensitive questions.

          Now, considering how VERY unwelcome any AA commenter would be who bounced into certain types of conversations at Nigerian blogs about Nigerian-specific life and death issues, it’s really *special* that you’re bristling at questions being raised what you’re basing your comments on. These are life and death issues for AABW. I’m concerned about saving as many AA Black women’s and girls’ lives as possible with the consciousness-raising work that’s being done on AA BWE blogs.

          This is not about jokes or entertainment. There’s no room for extra, unnecessary errors, and no room for folks talking out the side of their necks (since they don’t have any basis for their unsolicited input into discussions about life and death matters).

          Just like the WW Who Believes That Her Intake Of Black Male Penis Somehow Makes Her Knowledgeable About AA Black Issues, your feelings about being challenged about jumping into AA-specific conversations on AA blogs DON’T outweigh legitimate concerns about the potential damage caused by your intrusion into these very, VERY sensitive life and death issue conversations.

        • This is so deep on so many levels and now I see the parallels to the biracial discussion. I am not, at all, trying to single you out or point fingers but I just want to deconstruct what just happened here:

          1- A clear attempt to point out that you are “different” than AAs and have resources that AAs do not (i.e. the ability to hold office in your home country afforded vis-a-vis privilege).
          2- The use of the trope of acting uppity (which can be compared to the trope of acting white) that AAs burden/criticize you with.
          3- Claiming solidarity through support of organizations from which you can also benefit. There is actually very little distinction, in this country, between foreign born blacks when it comes to access to resources.
          4- Holding onto the notion of “straddling the fence” by benefit of inclusion in Nigerian culture AND AA culture.
          5- The conflating of other issues (i.e. conflating the intersectionality of race and gender).

          –It is almost like black men who cannot understand why black women would choose to prioritize certain women’s issues over certain race issues and even get angry when black women choose to identify with women’s issues.–

          Well, no. It’s not. Because black women cannot selectively choose to be women and/or black. Whereas you can selectively CHOOSE to identify as Nigerian or Black American/African American (or both). And I get it, on a technicality, you technically are Black American/African American. But in practicality, you’re not the descendant of Black American slaves in part, or in whole (according to you). This is like the biracial argument from before, wanting to “double dip” in the resources available by claiming membership in both groups.

          And I’m not even making a judgment call about it, just saying AH HA! I GET IT NOW!

          –Basically, I am not “third culture” and will not be joining any “third culture” movement.–

          Right, because to become a “third culture” would erase the “benefits” of straddling the fence of two other cultures. I get it now. Because a third culture would be forced to create their own EVERYTHING and not benefit from the historical work of AAs and Nigerians.

          This is sooooo deep!

        • APA, let me clarify that when I mentioned “third culture, I was just throwing it out there. I wasn’t trying to recruit you. I mentioned it because it was one of Darren’s black biracial nieces who first brought that term to my attention years ago. Her parents are from two different races and were raised on two different continents. She pointed out that she and her siblings have had greatly different experiences than either of their parents and because of the sum total of these different experiences, they were actually “Third Culture.” She said that many of her Asian, Indian, etc. college friends who grew up in this country find themselves in the same situation these days and that is why that’s an official term they already use to identify themselves.

          I had never heard about that before, but when I thought about it, I realize my sons fit into that same category to a great extent.

  41. @Formavitae re:

    “I agree with you that the quality of man is SO IMPORTANT. I ALSO agree with previous commenters who discussed different forms of value a man can offer to a woman’s life (e.g. hunting, fixing things, etc.). This is SO TRUE. Additionally, I have seen men who don’t have “high-powered” careers but have STRONG WORK ETHICS and are devoted to their children and families.”


    I agree, too, with previous comments about different forms of value that different men offer. In my private conferences though with women about the type of CQLL man they would like, they’re not able to provide details about the man they want aside from saying they want a man with enough money so that they could be a stay-at-home-mom. That amount of money differs from region to region.

    This is the area where I think many upwardly mobile AA women could benefit a lot from small group, private discussions, where someone painstakingly helps them to become realistic, where someone helps them to connect the dots of many aspects of life. These women know about SOME of the dots but are totally unaware or under-aware of other important dots and how they connect. Many of the dots in their thinking do NOT connect at all. Some of the women I’ve chatted with also do not realize that a lot also depends on what a woman brings to the relationship. For ex., I talked with a young woman who said she wanted a man who makes about $750,000 per year but would settle for a man who made a half million per year. She was serious. I was speechless! LOL! I knew she didn’t realize that only a tiny percent of salary earners in the country make that type of money. I pointed out to her that the median income in the country is about $55,000 per year. She had no idea about that or what that means

    But let’s say she does find a man who makes that 750 thousand per year or more. Maybe he’s a high-powered salesman, a surgeon, a fund manager, business owner, etc. My questions to her were: Can she perform HER ROLE as the wife of that type of man–because if he’s at that level, there’s usually a heavy social role she’s expected to play. Does she feel comfortable at his country club, chatting with his buddies, playing tennis or lying around the pool there, going on skiing trips, private cruises, participating on committees with the other non-working wives as they arrange teas, sell tulip bulbs, or sponsor silent auctions for charities? For ex.,is she comfortable with the the way that upper middle class and wealthy people tend to talk which can be different from the way lower middle and working class people talk.The former tends to use language differently or in a more indirect way. Can she host his dinner parties and feel comfortable?. Even many women who are raised in that type of environment end up as alcoholics, druggies, in therapy or all three just trying to manage that type of wifely social role. Is she willing to spend lots of time alone with the kids while he’s working to make sure the money keeps rolling in? This young woman got very quiet when I asked those questions.


    “Not ALL people are going to be financially “rich”. But, there are many people whose lives ABOUND with *intangible* wealth. Too many AAW/G have never had the experience of that security, and they don’t know how to obtain it.”


    Exactly. I have no idea where this idea that “IR interested bw should be looking for RICH men” has come from. Definitely not from me. What exactly does “rich” mean to these women? I’ve stated numerous times that when I met Darren, I was “financially comfortable” due to my ex-husband. I would never have been able to be in that state without what he did, but most women in a patriarchal world derive much of their financial comfort through their husbands, so what he did for me was nothing new. Both “rich” and “financially comfortable” means different things to different people. When I wanted to re-marry, I wanted a CQLL low-maintenance, low-keyed, emotionally secure, man who was also financially comfortable and who was living a laid-back life but still had a sense of adventure and wanted to travel and explore life. These were deal-breakers for me. I wouldn’t have dealt with a high-maintenance man who I needed to constantly stroke or reassure or one who was struggling financially or living a hectic life or a couch potato. Darren has his quirks, but I I got all I wanted and he also brought a bunch of other goodies that I could have never anticipated. A woman can cheat herself sometimes by being too exact in her thinking or speaking about what she wants in a mate.

    So, yes bw need to know that what they want is out there, but they also have to be realistic about what they’re able to offer.

    • What I feel some people don’t realize is that even if (for example) one partner earns 40 k yearly, if the other partner is able to bring home 30 or 35 (not too unreasonable), that’s 75 k they have AS A PAIR. I remember reading one of Suze Orman’s books, and she was talking about how a woman was a high earner, but her husband earned considerably less. They lived off the wife’s income and invested all of the husband’s income. Imagine if that were 30k or so a year. 30k is a considerable amount of money to invest on a yearly basis.

      I met a doctor who was married to another doctor. They both decided to work part-time, because they wanted to spend time with their children. So, they earn the equivalent of one physician’s salary, instead of two. Still not a bad quality of life. I’ve also met nurses who were full-time farmers. They didn’t work full-time as nurses, just a few days here and there to provide a cushion for their farming earnings. It is possible for people to find ways to “have more with less”.

      It is my honest opinion that anything a woman feels “she can’t live without” is something she needs to go out and secure for herself. For example, I’ve always known that I wanted my children to have a certain basic set of opportunities and quality of life. And, since my parents divorced, I realized divorce IS a possibility for some marriages. So, I decided that I wanted to be economically secure enough to provide those things whether I am married or not. Furthermore, I like a certain level of living and always want to live at that level, whether I have a man or not. THAT’S JUST ME.

      TOO many people, this day and age, are expecting “someone else” to provide for them the things THEY want. I’m sorry, but resources do not “just fall out of the sky”. SOMEONE has to work for them. And, resources have “maintenance expense” as well. Are you willing to pay? I know I’m not interested in worrying about keeping up with the “yacht” lifestyle. That’s why I’ve always preferred the “millionaire next door” lifestyle. However, I like the idea of owning a rowboat or canoe.

      I read Robert Kiyosaki (I believe), and he was saying that many people with high-earnings (like doctors) don’t get to keep as much of it, because they have to pay such high expenses to “maintain appearances”. So, “earning” more does not necessarily translate into “having” more. I also recently read an online article about different uber-wealthy people who were not going to be leaving their riches to their children. One man said that an inheritance is a “tremendous burden” (I believe that was the term he used). So, I feel many people think about the perks of having access to lots of money but frequently overlook the responsibilities and sacrifices associated with it.

    • The problem is, IMO, that there’s very little written to guide black women in mate selection. Most of the writing pertaining to mate selection are written for white women (specifically) and thus don’t take into consideration the specifics that AA women face in the mating market. This leads to, what I see, as a female driven narrative of what mating is supposed to be like, all authored by women.

      It’s similar to, IMO, the way most romance novels are written from a female perspective and often create male characters that just wouldn’t exist “like that” in real life. It’s of great benefit that writers like you offer perspective on obtaining a quality end result (whereas most black women focused dating advice focuses solely on sexual relationships and not marriage).

      –Exactly. I have no idea where this idea that “IR interested bw should be looking for RICH men” has come from.–

      Oh, we kind of *know* where it came from. It came from propaganda catering to AAW fantasies, much like romance novels, by people who stand to gain financially from the consumption of these narratives.

      • I agree that AAW receive little guidance when it comes to mate selection, except from those AAM like (Steve Harvey and Hill Harper) who are looking for a way to capitalize off of many AAW’s desire to establish “Black Love”-marriages and families. I feel another challenge is the religious approach which focuses on asking God to bring you your husband and making sure you aren’t “unequally yoked with unbelievers”. There’s nothing wrong with prayer. But, I know I would have benefited from more “practical” advice, when it comes to establishing a relationship with a mate–particularly, considering that I did not grow up “dating” and the like.

        Alas, I have learned from observation and experience. The wisdom and moral guidance I received saved me from many “perils”, but I CERTAINLY would have benefited from more direct teaching. I intend to offer such to my children. I have no hard feelings towards my parents, however. They did the best they knew how and did “a good job”, IMO.

        • —except from those AAM like (Steve Harvey and Hill Harper) who are looking for a way to capitalize off of many AAW’s desire to establish “Black Love”-marriages and families—

          But that’s the thing. They aren’t advising black women towards marriage, mostly to sexual relationships. And often, those relation ships aren’t monogamous as “those guys” are prone to instilling the indoctrination that “since men cheat” you “might as well deal.” They’re SOLELY focused on short to medium term mating because even THEY can’t escape the truth that black men, the other part of their equation, are, by large, unwilling to marry black women.

          It takes so much to open black women’s eyes to the reality that “those guys” are only trying to protect and maintain black men’s sexual access to black female bodies.

        • EXACTLY, Gina.

          When I said, “except for the Steve Harvey’s,” etc., what I was really saying is that AAW have NO ONE. Those of us WITH SENSE realize the Harveys and Hills are just “hustling” AAW.

      • Lol Gina, yes I was about to say that we know *exactly* where some of these rich man fantasies are coming from. Or at least I have my ideas. Its sad to see some wome focus only on money when focusing on marrying well and thats not the point (or at least not the only thing to worry about).

      • @ Gina re–

        “It’s of great benefit that writers like you offer perspective on obtaining a quality end result (whereas most black women focused dating advice focuses solely on sexual relationships and not marriage).”


        The thing I don’t get about AA women flocking to dating advice about purely sexual relationships is that sex is SO nothing new. Why would any adult woman need to listen to anyone tell them how to get sex from a man? I mean, sex is as old as dirt. Y’all have to be patient with me, but my inquiring mind would like to know why so many younger bw see sex as the “end result.” Sexual curiosity and even going through an experimentation phase is one thing, but “end result?” Is it because that viewpoint matches the reality for so many bw? Or, is sex hard for a bw to get? It seems that way from some of the discussions I read where the focus is on pure mechanical sex of all types as the goal. OMG! That is so, well . . . . MANLY.

        WARNING: This is going to sound fuddy-duddy to the max, but ladies, do NOT talk about your monthly, or anything that has to do with your monthly, or about any sexual act, your underwear, his underwear, your genitals, or a man’s genitals EVER in public. That’s just for starters. I need to set up sessions for some of these blabbing bw to be schooled by my 81-year old aunt in Alabama. LOL!

        And bw need to declare at least a 10-year moratorium on talking about their hair! It really annoys me these days that some bw get so irked or pretend to get irked when someone from another group mentions bw’s hair because bw themselves TALK endlessly in practically every public forum about their hair. So now, after they’ve put all of their hair business out on Front St., they now have the nerve to get outraged when somebody notices their hair??? Come on!

        • — I mean, sex is as old as dirt. Y’all have to be patient with me, but my inquiring mind would like to know why so many younger bw see sex as the “end result.” —

          Because so few people know how to instruct BW on how to marry and marry well. Think about it for a moment. So the focus becomes dating and relationships (which are primarily sexual when factoring in the messaging about monogamy).

  42. It’s very upsetting to me what’s occurred here with APA. I embrace other cultures, so I absolutely can’t go along with this. Even if the need is felt to turn someone away at the door, for God’s sake, be gracious about it! Don’t pile up on them. But maybe that’s just my old backwoods Alabama way talking. I am who I am.

    I highly value bw–ALL of them. That’ why I do the work I do. I also highly value other cultures. I see the good and not so good in all of them, as I do in the culture AAs used to practice. And while I compare and contrast them, I recognize that all of them are bringing an important piece of the puzzle. None of us can put the puzzle together alone.

    During the decades of my life, many Africans have been totally there for me, and it’s not just because of my ex-husband. I was involved with East and West Africans in NYC even before I met my ex. There were Africans who were very hospitable towards me, embraced me, and supported me in my various endeavors when AAs did not support me at all. We all know how so many AAs think they have a choice not to support each others’ projects, yet holler about how there’s no unity ONLY when they need support. Well, one of the first things that attracted me to Africans when I first encountered them in NYC way back in my early 20s was that lo and behold, they weren’t like that towards me. a stranger, and it didn’t matter whether it was women or men. They seemed to be proud of my little flimsy initiatives and they all encouraged me. Their warm smiles boosted my spirit and when/if I was selling items, they would more often than not stop to chat, or buy from me, even disproportionately so, and even if they only spent a dollar or two. I knew they were saying to me: “You can do this!” They were, to me, like folks from my Alabama community.

    No African person has ever been rude to me, and I have lived in Nigeria. Most have always been gracious, warm, and welcoming, or at the least, never insulting.

    A total mental transformation is sorely needed in the world.

    OLS, thank you so much for your hospitality.

  43. This is such a great discussion! I know to some it may seem that people are coming on strong towards APA, but it’s such a powerful sight for me to see and brings up a situation that I was a part of in college that I’d like to share.

    I was in a mostly black interest group in a predominately white university in the early 2000s. After one of our events everyone was gathered around talking and talking photos. Somehow we decided to take heritage related photos with the Carribean and African students getting in their own photos and the “just Black” students in another. I was in the “just Black” group (and as I mentioned before somewhere above here, that designation has always made me cringe inside).

    So the groups are going back and forth with some funny heritage specific banter, talking about the different ways that we were raised, etc., which led one of the young men in the Carribean group to yell “At least we have a culture!” to which everyone in the Carribean and African groups laughed and oohed and “oh snapped.”

    And what did us in the “just Black” group do? Nothing. We were silent and uncomfortable and hurt and ashamed. We didn’t mention the irony of them thinking that way when many of their home countries were a mess and the fact that they all were here in our country to go to school and use the resources available to them which were gained by the work our ancesters did. We were silent.

    At the time I would have killled for someone like these ladies in this groupt to speak up and stand for us since we were too ill equipped to stand for ourselves. And so that is why I understand the so-called harsh approach that is taken.

    There is a lot of shame in AA women still, especially the younger ones. Shame at being “just Black.” Shame at not having a culture (which I don’t agree is the case, but many of them feel that way or call damaging things our culture). And that shame leads them to allow others to infiltrate their spaces. That shame causes them to let others speak first and for them. That shame causes them to downplay who they are so others feel comfortable. That shame causes them to be too nice and accomodating and accepting to anybody who presents themselves at the party without demanding respect and reciprocity. That shame is destructive and damaging and it’s so pervasive and subtle, but it’s there affecting how we handle situations.

    And I believe that that shame allowed the AA people at the NAACP to accept Rachel as part of the AA unit without question and then when they found out she was lying be so quick to say we will forgive her and it’s not about race, it’s about the lying (not all have said this, but some have).

    So I’m glad to see an example of what push back looks like. We so rarely fight for ourselves and our spaces and it sends a silent signal to AA women and girls that you aren’t worth fighting for and you must always step aside for others.

    And I don’t think any of these ladies is saying to not benefit from other non-AA people’s perspectives and cultures and insights. I know I’m not saying that. Learning and good experiences can come from all cultures. But in this case, for this space, we were talking about African American women and their identities and we don’t have to accept other perspectives without question. I’m so glad Khadijah asked the question of APA. I still don’t get the mindset to show up to a situation discussing AA identity and then give feedback based on another one. I’ve never been moved to show up to a Nigerian blog, or a Puerto Rican blog, or an Irish blog and give my two cents. It’s fascinating to me too.

    • Dorabeth,

      The tragedy is that the sort of shame and silence that you described in your comment is something that our deeply flawed AA Black Nationalist ancestors tried to address with the creation of Kwanzaa.

      Keep in mind I’m fully aware of extreme sexism that was part and parcel of the Black Nationalist wing of the civil rights cadre. The extreme sexism and DBR-ness of the Black Nationalist crowd drove me all the way OUT of that ideology as I awakened to BWE. But, as with anything else, it’s good to examine something before blindly tossing it into the garbage can.

      AA integrationists wanted to pretend that the AA collective was emotionally healthy, and that simply being free to get near to Whites was THE answer to our problems. The Black Nationalists knew and acknowledged that the AA collective had (and still has) DEEP emotional and spiritual wounds*—most of all, a lack of ethnic and racial self-respect. Which is what causes so many AAs to let non-AA others step all over us, pimp us, and mistreat us in general.

      [*A modern-day, BWE-related example is how far too many AABW who have started dating out have taken the baby-mama-oow-has-become-normalized dysfunction into their relationships with nonblack men. Unfortunately, a growing number of AABW are exchanging being baby mamas to BM with being baby mamas to nonblack man and having biracial oow babies. {sigh}]

      Kujichagulia (Self-Determination) is the 2nd principle and day of Kwanzaa. It’s designed to encourage us “to define ourselves, to name ourselves, speak for ourselves and create for ourselves.”

      I don’t celebrate Kwanzaa, but I understand what our ancestors were trying to do with it.

      We don’t have to celebrate Kwanzaa in order to exercise our right to self-determination. 🙂

      • Thanks, Khadijah! 🙂 And while I’ve never fully practiced Kwanzaa, I resonate with the principles and feel that they are much needed in AA life. And I will remember that we can practice those principles all year round.

    • —I was in a mostly black interest group in a predominately white university in the early 2000s. After one of our events everyone was gathered around talking and talking photos… I was in the “just Black” group —

      The first time I was “othered” as a black person was at an HBCU. Up until that point, there had never been a high enough concentration of foreign born or first generation born in America blacks to become divisible in that nature (as I live in California and most of the foreign/black communities appear to be on the east coast and south east).

      It was the first time I had ever heard another black person say “she’s not one of us” and it wasn’t done maliciously, it was done matter of factly (Haitian roommate).

      So I completely understand your experience, even though mine wasn’t as harsh. I didn’t think that level of “division” took place until I experienced it first-hand. And it’s not JUST the heritage, it’s often the shade that takes place when they switch into speaking their native language in your presence so you can’t “hear” the conversation.

      • Gina,

        That behaviour of switching languages is just plain rude.


        I can only offer what I did when such shade was attempted my way whether from other black ethnic groups. I promptly remind them that I come from a people of “GIANTS”. Yes, our ancestors faced insurmountable odds yet not only survived but accomplished great things to a degree that no other black ethnic group can claim in the West. (I have traveled quite a few places in western Europe and can attest to this).

        Furthermore when such others proceed to get downright rude, I remind them that they are nothing more the carpet baggers who benefitted from our legacy to even be able to set foot on U.S. soil (unfortunately here, it was the failure of AA BM to set boundaries on that legacy to be solely for descendants of slaves in the U.S.). They are, therefore, always more the welcome to return to their homeland.

        AA BW have every reason to hold their heads high as we are a wonderful, unique group of women and though the efforts of the pioneers of BWE, we are finally spreading our wings to fly.

      • My peak foreign born Black AA moment happened years ago. Everyone I met always stated how better their home country was/is. If this is so, why are you here? What they say between what they do never made sense.

        And “just Black”? How absolutely offensive. It’s as Khadija states Black Americans dont have enough pride or knowledge of self to squash that shit. You are only here because my “just Black” ass allowed it.

        They always want something from AAs, like sponsoring their entry into this country, helping them find jobs once here but I never hear of these courtesies being extended to Blacks attempting the reverse.

        In case no one has noticed, a good portion of BAW are publicly coming apart at the seams. We must instill boundaries to try and stem the tide.

        • Soul Alive,

          I’ve never heard a full, honest answer to that “if it’s so great, what are you doing here?” question. I think it’s because to do so, they’d have to acknowledge that it’s not so great.

          And you’re right, “just Black” is so offensive. And sadly we all willingly allowed ourselves to be called that for the photo. Titles and descriptive words mean more than we realize. They send messages about how you should feel about yourself. That’s why I’m more careful now in how I describe myself. I will never call myself “just Black.” I have too much pride in where I came from now. I also feel like we’ve allowed people to get too all inclusive with the African American title, but that’s probably another post for another day.

        • Dorabeth,

          This is why I PERSONALLY don’t agree with being called “African” American. However, this label is currently assigned to us. I don’t like it, because it suggests we are some type of ” immigrants”, and WE ARE NOT. WE are part of the ORIGINAL U.S. Americans.

          I feel we need a label that ACCURATELY reflects who we are and our position as ORIGINAL U.S. Citizens ( notice, I didn’t say “North American” citizens–that belongs to indigenous Americans). So, sometimes, I’ll actually refer to myself as “Black American” or ” American Negro”, to try to be clear. Some people think the term “American Negro” is funny. At least, it has a legitimate connection to the history and identification of MY unique people group. But, that’s just me. I WISH AAs would distinguish themselves.

        • Also, if these people don’t want to return to their home countries, they’re free to go to Canada, Europe, South America, India, Saudi Arabia, Japan, etc. They don’t have to come HERE. There are other countries outside of the United States. But, for our people to start “going there”, they need to have PRIDE in the U.S. and drop the ANTIPATHY. But, that’s not “cool”, “black”, etc. We REALLY need an overhaul of those who lead our “groupthink”, since that’s how AAs like to function.

      • Gina,

        It’s both comforting and sad to know that I wasn’t alone in my being “othered” experience. There is definite shade. And the language exclusion is just so immature. Being on the east coast the “just Black” classification happened as far back as grammar school for me and it took me a long time to realize just how damaging that was to my own identity and to the memory of my ancestors.

      • Karen,

        Thank you for your suggestions on how to handle the shade attempts! I wish I had them when I was younger, it would have spared me so many years of angst and shame. We do come from “GIANTS” and most of the non-AA black people who try to shade us are doing so from a shaky foundation. It’s the whole “people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones” thing, you know? I had to revisit the definition for carpet baggers, but it’s a perfect description!

    • First of all, this blog is great, I really can’t express the excitement I felt when I first starting reading here. Thank you, Not Your Girl Friday!
      Dorabeth it’s sad, but like you until very recently, I too never knew how to respond or even to respond to “others” in situations like you described. Someone told me years ago that we (AA) didn’t have a “Culture” I responded with a not so nice comment but I truly wish I could have given a response like Khadija’s.
      My husband is Nigerian and I have been to many of their Kinsmen meetings. In those meetings they were always very nice to me, however it was always clear I was a visitor in their presence. The thought of offering my opinion never came to mind, I would never disrespect them by even offering an opinion about subjects that were clearly for them, not me. So therefore, my 2 cents stayed reserved for me and my husband to discuss later.

  44. Gina,

    In response to another commenter’s comments, you said:

    —“Because black women cannot selectively choose to be women and/or black. Whereas you can selectively CHOOSE to identify as Nigerian or Black American/African American (or both). And I get it, on a technicality, you technically are Black American/African American. But in practicality, you’re not the descendant of Black American slaves in part, or in whole (according to you). This is like the biracial argument from before, wanting to “double dip” in the resources available by claiming membership in both groups.

    And I’m not even making a judgment call about it, just saying AH HA! I GET IT NOW!

    –Basically, I am not “third culture” and will not be joining any “third culture” movement.–

    Right, because to become a “third culture” would erase the “benefits” of straddling the fence of two other cultures. I get it now. Because a third culture would be forced to create their own EVERYTHING and not benefit from the historical work of AAs and Nigerians.

    This is sooooo deep!”—-

    DING! Ding! Ding! Ding!—we have a winner here—LOL!

    I’m happy that you can now see EXACTLY what the deal is with these various folks who want to be able to straddle identity fences to slide in and out of AA identity—it’s ALL about them wanting to “double dip” and TAKE/STEAL/ROB from the historical resources that AAs built up. The vast majority of these type of folks don’t have any affection or concern whatsoever about AAs—most of them just want to mug us. That’s all. I’m not for that. And I’m not going to cooperate with getting mugged.

    I’m not going to cooperate with double-dipping outsiders snatching food off AA BW and girls’ plates (that our AA civil rights ancestors died to create) while AABW and girls are literally starving to death right now (in various ways because 99.99% of AA resources are being diverted AWAY from AABW and girls).

    These I Wanna Slip & Slide & Double-Dip From The Resources Created By DEAD AA Civil Rights Martyrs folks might also want to TAKE from non-AA others, but my only loyalties are to the women and children from my own suffering ethnic group of people. As categories, non-AA others don’t need my help because everybody except AAs knows how to set boundaries and protect their resources from being hijacked.

    Part of the problem is that AAs are kumbaya-brainwashed to mistakenly think these various others are in some type of solidarity with us, when what’s actually been happening is that AAs are being mugged and robbed. And these AAs typically want to guard dog and pit pull and fight with other AA Blacks in order to support these various entire categories of random, no-kin-to-them-in-any-way “others” (who have never done anything—and never will do anything—to support AA interests).

    Another part of the problem is that so many of us are so eager and so very quick to transfer our allegiance over to others altogether or divide our loyalties among various groups of people (reserving the crumbs of our loyalty for our own people). No other ethnic group of people does that in large numbers. It’s something very different to be loyal to—and “cape for”—*specific individuals* who have extended specific support to you. I gladly “cape for” those specific persons who have done things to actively support me and mine. That’s reciprocity. In terms of generalized “caping,” I only cape in support of the interests of AABW and AA girls.

    When non-AA others of all races like and love a specific AA person, those non-AA others extend a pass for—and look out for—that specific beloved AA person ONLY. Non-AAs don’t give carte blanche passes to random, unrelated AAs who’ve never done anything for that non-AA person just because they happen to like or love 1 specific AA person and their immediate family members.

    What I’m talking about is something very different than that. I’m talking about the carte blanche passes AAs love to give out to random, unrelated, no-kin-to-them-in-any-way “others” who’ve never done anything in support of AAs. And this is something that only AAs do (back to that observed pattern that when you’re the only one doing something, it’s usually something that’s a bad idea).

    And then these same AAs typically want to “guard dog” and “pit pull” and fight with other AA Blacks on behalf of entire categories of random, unrelated, no-kin-to-them-in-any-way “others” (who have never done anything—and never will do anything—to support AA interests). I decided a while back that I’m not going to actively tussle or fight with other AAs who want to guard dog on behalf of non-AA others. They can do their thing; and I’ll continue to do my thing.

    I’ll speak my thoughts about an issue and leave it at that. These days, everybody’s mileage can and does vary.

    Ladies, have a good day!

  45. Warning: REAL TALK

    To all of you who feel inferior around these other black folks, or anyone else, you need to take your parents to court or whoever raised you and SUE them for not instilling pride in you. Instead of sitting around consuming all of the garbage on TV and in the media and then fuming at other groups, you YOURSELVES need to open some books and READ on why you should feel proud of your own ethnic group. STUDY those books and then either START UP or join discussion groups where AAs talk about issues of self pride, black history, ending colorism, etc.. Those groups DO exist in larger areas and even in some smaller ones, but they usually can’t even get any black folks there to attend or the attendance drops off and the groups don’t last. I even got the minister at the local church here to start up a group like that for the black teens here. He told their parents to come too. At the first meeting, there were a bunch of parents and their kids, but next time, there weren’t many and finally the group just died out.

    I want anyone here to feel free to call me anything you want or accuse me of anything you want because I can stand alone. Y’all need to stop blaming your inferiority complex on de evil others. I have never felt inferior around any African or any Caribbean or not because of their group. I may have felt that individuals ones of them could decorate better than me or perform something better than me, but never because of their group. They can’t look down on me because I’m not DOWN there. And when some of the Africans even tried over the years to claim me as being just like them or one of them, I proudly stated that “No, I’m African American.” The reason I refer to myself as PAB is because AAs have told me that something’s wrong with me for not thinking like typical AAs, for not having an inferiority complex or for not being mad at de evil white man or de evil others. I’m VERY thankful I’m not like that!

    I know y’all don’t want to hear this but y’all are the ones who ALLOWED these folks to make you feel inferior. So after y’all get tired of Africans and white folks for MAKING y’all feel inferior, get ready for de evil Hispanics and de evil Koreans, de evil Arabs, , etc. etc. etc. They couldn’t do it if you don’t cooperate. For any African American who can read, there’s NO excuse for any of that because your history is written in BOOKS and those books are available to all of us these days–24-7.

    I’ll bet you that my sons don’t ever feel inferior around ANYBODY because I–their African American mother–made it a point to start instilling pride in them from the moment I held them in MY arms at the hospital. I DID THAT. I didn’t depend on my ex-husband to do that or the teachers at the school or white folks media or anything or anybody else.

    • Evia,

      I am making an assumption that I am one of the “yous” you are referring to since I mentioned my experience in college. Correct me if I’m wrong about that.

      I think what you missed from what I wrote was that this experience was in the past. I am no longer in that place, it has been over a decade since I was. It also seems that the other women who shared similar experiences were also sharing things that happened in the past.

      And while I do agree that it is our responsibility as adults to read and learn and grow, your comment comes across to me as though you are judging people who are slower to pick up what you know and have known for a while. Everyone is on their own journey of learning and some come to conclusions later than others. If I was in that same place now and reading your comment, I would read your suggestions in a way that implies that I should feel bad about myself for not knowing what I don’t know in the moment. And for people who know things later because they weren’t blessed to grow up in a family that encouraged them to know and take pride in their AA background (which happens more than you’d think). Again, this is just my perspective and your method of motivating people likely works for some people.

      Lastly, I don’t understand how mentioning treatment is blaming others. My story was more about how sad it was that I didn’t have the words and confidence at that time to use to defend myself and my ancestral honor. Their rudeness bothered me, but in the end it was and is my responsibility to learn about my history and define myself. And about the inferiority complex, I don’t understand that angle. I don’t see where anyone said “I feel bad about myself because of what these non-AA people did to me.” I see women saying that AA perspectives should be prominent in discussions about AA identity and I also see women saying “I see how I allowed my ancestry to be denigrated while dealing with non-AA Black people and I wish I said something or I did say something and this is what I said.”

      • I agree with you Dorabeth, no one said anything about feeling inferior. I was confused as to where that came from. Lots of assumptions were made in that one comment and makes me feel like perhaps Evia was hacked.

        However, if that is her genuine stance I guess.

        Sometimes you don’t have a snappy comeback when you need it and other times you may just want to avoid confrontation and simply learn from the experience.

        We are pushing back in this space at this time against non-AA’s entering our conversations and are being accused of believing we are inferior…


        • Soul Alive, my work stands for what it is.

          No one is ever expected to ever say “I feel inferior.” Don’t you realize that people can figure this out? This is one reason why so many women are like putty to most of these user men. They can READ you, but many of you think they can’t figure you out.

          And I’m not only addressing women in this thread. Whatever I write is aimed at many who may be reading along. I’ve communicated with many AA women who will admit that they don’t go into other settings amid those of other groups because those folks make comments and or behave in ways that make them feel less-than aka “inferior.” Some of those comments or incidents are very much the same as ones expressed in this thread. This is the main reason these days why so many upwardly mobile AA women remain socially segregated. But what if what they NEED is in that other setting?

          More AA women need to admit this and then do the work they need to do so that they can go into those other settings and nail it down.

          I’m just suggesting the antidote. If you don’t need it, then trash it.

      • @Dorabeth re:

        “I see women saying that AA perspectives should be prominent in discussions about AA identity”


        That part is just common sense, so I didn’t address that at all. The only reason why this has even become an issue is because SO MANY AAs lack self-pride and feel inadequate and insufficient around others. Therefore, these others can just march in and start calling the shots and plenty of AAs are happy to have them there.

        So, I addressed the commentary about the “just black,” as well as those who have issues with others speaking their language, and well, I said it in my comments. I don’t need to repeat it here.

        It seems to me that there is a constant level of seething resentment, anger or rage that so many AA women spew (not necessarily here) towards a whole assortment of folks: bm, ww, wm, Africans, Caribbeans, other AA women, black biracials, light-skinned women of all ethnicities, LGBTs, transexuals,homosexuals, etc. And this constant AA woman’s lashing out behavior on the part of some of them impacts the image of ALL AA women because this is why so many AA women are unfortunately known as having “attitude”. So, I’m speaking on it. What bw who have these feelings are overlooking is that MOST of these ongoing feelings of uneasiness or triggered bouts of anger they’re having are largely due to feelings of inadequacy, insecurity, lack of self/group pride, lack of acceptance and lack of love for self.

        Having a quick retort to hurl at someone who makes you feel inadequate is a band-aid. It’s not going to help you to relax around them or make you feel equal to them. And even IF the retort momentarily works, you will still be stressed, whereas if you have genuine internalized self-pride, you won’t be stressed. You will probably silently laugh at the antics of these others. BEST OF ALL: You will also feel comfortable going into any setting because you feel on a par with anyone there.

        “your comment comes across to me as though you are judging people who are slower to pick up what you know and have known for a while.”

        Since I think some of us here are being HALFWAY candid in this thread, I have to phrase this in a halfway candid way and say this is a typical response of many in your generation in order to make folks stop saying what needs to be said. The word “judging” is not a word that fazes me. I know that it works wonders in your generation though. You’re saying young folks are “slower” and can’t understand this or that. The fact is that there is nothing in those books on black achievement or our history that anyone here can’t grasp and fast. Those books are mostly written at no higher than a 3rd to 4th grade level and this material is easy to get these days online. You don’t even have to get up and much of it is FREE.. Since you like being on the internet, maybe you need to set up a website where black history and achievement are discussed and invite others who are “slower” there so y’all can hash it out?

        • Evia,

          I appreciate your original comment and your response to Dorabeth because I totally get what you are saying. The truth is AA’s as a collective have not and will not ever deal with psychological effects that slavery has left on the descendents of slaves in this country. No one wants to admit there are huge gaps in our psyches where racial pride should be. Because no one wants to admit this, nothing is done, and each generation is a worse off due to this combined with the effects of the deteriorating AA collective. It is up to each of us to make an effort to instill our own AA cultural pride. It will never happen on a mass level.

          I often ‘cringe’ when AA throw the ‘judgement’ accusation at each other. As Khadijah has said, this is a ‘fantasy island’ notion that nobody should be judging other people. The brutal truth is every other ethnic/racial group on the planet judges other people! This is another example of how so many AA’s have it backwards to other groups of people.

          This ‘judgement trickbag’ (thanks Khadija!) AAs LOVE to throw around is just another thought terminating cliche, that’s designed to shut AABW up and prevent them from having these discussions that might take you to the next level. AABW who lead wholesome lives, work hard, achieved their education, etc. should ‘judge’ other people who have every excuse as to why they ‘cannot’ do the same thing! I’m glad you went there.

          I’m also glad you talked about how the AA collective fails to pass down critical ‘living well’ knowledge to the next generation. For the past decade, I have dated upper middle class/upper class White men and I know I have not received critical information that would have helped me! It has been a HUGE learning curve and embarrassing at times to realize how little my mother did to prepare me to relate to people that are born and bred into the middle/upper classes of America. A lot of the advice that I received was actually DETRIMENTAL to attracting and retaining the kind of man that I want to spend the rest of my life with. On top of all that, my parents divorced when I was young and my father is a DBR, so I had no consistent male role models. I have had to use other venues such as mentoring and BWE sites to help me cover some of my deficiencies. And I’m still working on that. It will be a lifelong project for me.

        • I understand what you are saying but found the timing of your comment odd.

          I respect your work and would never even try to take anything away from you in that regard. I was just stating my opinion that every BW who refuses to clap back as it were is suffering from a massive case of inferiority.

          Now that we have cleared the air, carry on.

        • Evia,

          I still don’t think that you understood where I was coming from. I wasn’t trying to “faze” you. I don’t identify with your assessment of the generation you think I fall into. I was just saying that certain methods work for some people and not for others. Some people learn better by the tough love approach, some learn better by having something explained using logic, some learn better by hearing stories (this is by no means an exhaustive list of how people learn, just examples of different ways people can receive information). One way of learning is not better or worse as long as the end result of learning and growth is achieved.

          I also didn’t say people who learn things later were slower, I said “Everyone is on their own journey of learning and some come to conclusions later than others.” I never said it was because they were too slow to learn. Some people’s parents teach them things when they are little or they learn it in school. Some people don’t learn certain things until they work through it for themselves as an adult. There is no judgement, there is only different life lessons learned at different journey points that vary from person to person. If I was calling them “slower” in a derogatory way, I would be talking about myself since I learned some of these things in my late teens.

          And I’ll say again that I agree with you that no one should blame someone else for how they feel about themselves and that people should take the time to learn about where they came from and their ancestry and have pride in that. On that we are in full agreement.

    • No one is saying that they feel inferior. Or at least that wasn’t what I got from it. And let me be clear about when I shared my experience dealing with being “othered”, I was in college and seventeen at the time. While I can totally understand if some of you really had it all together at that age, and knew how to respond to such un-anticipated situations when they happened to you for the first time in your life, I was not in that place. Having said that, I won’t be blaming/suing my parent(s)/family for not teaching me how to deal with a situation that they couldn’t have anticipated as their experience ALSO is primarily with other black-blacks and not foreign blacks or first generation American born blacks.

      I also don’t like this dichotomy where you either have pride OR you’re consuming mass media garbage. I was at an HBCU, and Dorabeth was in a group of blacks at a PWI. Both of those circumstances indicate people who sought other like-minded individuals only to find that there’s separatism even within those who identify as black.

      I was responding to her because I GET IT. I experienced the same thing. I wasn’t aware that there were all these “factions” of blacks until that happened because of where I live and realistically this was before the internet was really something popular so I didn’t have the benefit of that either. It was all BBS and AOL chat rooms back then.

      But none of that indicates that any of those experiences made me feel “less than” or inferior. And nobody was blaming others, just sharing their experiences of how all blacks don’t consider themselves “one of us” just because we share similar skin color and phenotype.

  46. Speaking of which, my oldest son told me about an incident on his job when he first started working at the bank. This incident still gives me chills when I think about it. During a diversity day event at the bank, the white facilitator had told them to break into groups based on their ethnicity and to then be ready to talk about their groups contribution to America. My son said that for his black group, one of the senior black people in his dept, appointed himself as spokesman for their black group. When it was the black group’s turn, he said that this black fool sat there and said: “Well, black folks contribute the music,the dancing, and the ball playing. He said the man was completely serious. My son was mortified by this!!

    MORE Real Talk:
    Another thing is let me just tell y’all that those of you who feel inferior to other groups and are trying to date or marry IR, do yourselves a favor and do NOT do it. YET. READ and STUDY about who you are and who your people are FIRST and make sure you know it and FEEL it. Internalize it. If not and if you start living around or in the midst of these other groups, many of whom do feel group pride, y’all will be feeling like a pile of mess just about every day because they’re not going to swallow their pride in their beauty, their accomplishments, their history or not speak their language just because YOU are there. Why should they? It’s not THEIR fault that your group didn’t teach you to feel pride or because YOU haven’t taken responsibility to learn your history and feel proud about yourself.

    I’m just extrapolating here but if some of y’all feel inferior around Africans or Caribbeans, you will probably feel inferior around whites? Tell me: How are you going to manage those feelings around your white boyfriend or husband?

    At family gatherings, Darren’s family usually start talking about episodes in their ethnic group’s history or they may share a book title about it or something similar. I usually chime in with episodes or incidents from AA history that may be somewhat similar. Pretty soon, we’re sharing our histories. LOL There are various joyful and pride-invoking episodes from AA history. A lot of AAs prefer to keep the focus on the depressing, melancholy aspects of our history simply to make white folks feel bad.

    Anyway, I WANT folks to speak their language around me. Why should they stop speaking their language, or act in any way unnatural just because I’m there? I have never taken that personally or felt they were doing that to make me feel bad or push me out and if they’re talking about me, then let them! That’s INSECURITY on YOUR part if you feel that way. I even told Nigerians and I’ve told Hispanic parents too many times that they MUST teach their children their own language. Many silly Nigerians refused to teach their children their language because they say they want their children to be as westernized as possible. Imagine that! But some of them regret that now that their kids are grown and have lost so much contact with their cultural identity.

    As an adult, YOU must take a lot of responsibility for living well ON YOUR OWN. Maybe your parents, family didn’t have the wherewithal to teach you certain things. You must develop the self-agency to do that. My family didn’t teach me certain things because they couldn’t, but I learned from them that I was STILL supposed to have the self sufficiency drive to learn them on my own because if I don’t learn them, then who’s the loser?

    • Yeah, I’m one of those AABW who was left with no useful information about work/life/marriage by family and I managed to marry and have kids anyway. BWE is kind of a lifeline in some ways, even though I mostly lurk such blogs, because it’s good to see other BW having interesting conversations and discussing how to have a good life without the chains of unreciprocated obligation that are so crippling and common. The BWE-sphere has been a rewarding and amazing part of the internet for me and I’m grateful for the women who keep their blogs public and allow vigorous and challenging discussions to take place in them, like the hostess of this blog.

      This has been a really excellent discussion, though hard to follow with the wordpress threading issues. I’m interracially married and it was organic. I didn’t set out to marry IR or date IR, I just ended up in that situation because my hobbies and interests weren’t ones where there were many American black men. And that’s really the best bet for most clueless BW. If you meet nonblack men because you share hobbies/interests, you can avoid nearly all the creepy fetish stuff and most of the potential DBR risks. At least, that’s my experience dating and marrying IR based on affinity.

  47. I’m not “accusing” anyone of anything or “assigning” anything to anyone, but I feel I am sensing a “reverse paper bag test” going on. And, it’s leading to some imbalances that reproduce the same deleterious effects for AAW/G and AAs in general.

    Embracing black Africans who share NO connection with us historically, culturally, experientially, or via family, while rejecting those who HAPPEN to be able to “pass the paper bag test” but share our history, blood, culture, experience, and language makes absolutely NO SENSE to me. WHY replace representatives who reflect you “a little bit” with those who do not reflect you AT ALL? At the end of the day, the results are the same: YOU are not reflected, and SOMEONE ELSE reaps the benefits of your promotion.

    This is disturbing to me, and it makes me feel AAs have no clue how to “self-represent”. Furthermore, it suggests there are some unresolved issues related to imbalances in social concepts of “human worth”. Once again, I am sharing feelings I’ve had from observing several things for an extended period of time. I decided to “come on out with it”, since we seem to be “clearing the air”.

    • Formavitae, could you speak more plainly? Please?

      But to everyone: If anyone thinks that I’m trying to be malicious here, I will leave because this is too exhaustive and not a good use of my time. I really, really don’t want to stress anyone and I don’t want to be stressed either.

      • Evia,

        You are fine. We are all just expressing ourselves here as you do so eloquently all the time. I love your input and appreciate your no nonsense ways. You are amazing.

        You stay put. We all don’t have to agree to have these discussions.

      • Evia,

        I’m referring to the sentiments I sense regarding the rejection of many (formerly considered) AAs because they CAN “pass the paper bag test” or they DO have the “correct” (read: nonblack) features but open embracing of people like Lupita, simply because they seem to be the ANTITHESIS of the “paper bag test” norm. I just sometimes feel that some reactions aren’t simply about promoting UB girl beauty. Sometimes, I feel there’s something else going on.

        Lupita looks NOTHING like AAs. So, if we’re trying to uplift/standardize AA beauty, Lupita is NOT a good selection, IMO. However, since she is the OPPOSITE of the “paper bag test”, she’s heralded and embraced. Nevermind the fact that she identifies as “Kenyan” and “Mexican”.

        Fact of the matter is (from what I’ve seen), the majority of AAs are not at the EXTREMES of coloring (very “white”, very “black”). They tend to fall in the middle of the spectrum, from golden brown to medium chocolate. I personally think most AA girls range from Ashanti to Keke Palmer (or slightly darker). I think they actually are good representations of what “AA girls” LOOK like.

        I JUST WISH AAW/G could figure out how to promote THEIR GROUP without feeling the need to “write off” one typology or another. And, I also wish we would stop substituting “OTHERS” for “US”–even, extremely black/Negroid “OTHERS”.

        • ‘Lupita looks nothing like AA’s’. AA people just like Caribbeans and Black Latina’s come in all different shades. Their ancestry also lies in the Trans-atlantic slave trade.
          Ummm you can’t be serious???You sound so off right now. BTW I’m AA myself and have Lupita’s skin tone! In fact, a disproportionate about of AA’s I see do IN FACT have Lupita’s skin tone. That’s probaLly why so many AA women like myself embraced her. AA women like yourself come off so paranoid. Like Evia said, women like you have no business marrying interracially. Or like Neecy said, having biracial children. How is this going to work if you guys have the ‘Someone is always out to get me – woe is me mentality’? Also, considering the fact that multi-ethnic and multi racial families are the fastest growing people in America in a rapidly globalizing world I would LOVE TO know why segregating ourselves is the answer. My best friend is the child of immigrants, and so is many of my frienDS. Mabey its because of your generation is older but my generation do not have problems with first generation americans. Many of my white friends are white americans even though there parents are russians. WHY? Because there white and were born in this country. Do you see white people writing them off? No. Just how my best friend is black american because she is black and born here. She faces the same issues we AA women face whether you want to believe it or not. The first thing people see here is a black woman not caribbean. You guys CONSTANTLY contradict yourselves. This is why everyone thinks AA women are crazy and have an attitude. PLUS foreign blacks are REMAKING the black population and are here to stay.

          This country is known as the land of oppurtunities where anyone can come here and MAKE some of themselves whether they are black, indian, hispanic, asian, ECT.. You guys make other AA women like myself look petty and jealous. The constant bringing up -if it werent for us they wouldnt be here- makes us look petty and stuck in the past. Everyone else is moving forward except us AA’s which is why we pretty much are a permanent underclass. MOVE FORWARD.

          Ex: Do you not remember Hurrican Katrina victims? Ummm the vast majority of them were darker than KeKe Palmer.

        • Formavitae, I’m not sure what’s happening with that. I’m going to always support those who support me, mine, and those in my identity group, but all bw are not in my identity group, and neither are all AA women. In this one thread, there are likely to be several identity groups, that is if the mindsets of commenters were carefully examined. It’s much more difficult for AAs to figure out who’s in “THEIR GROUP” because we don’t have a culture any more. AAs may as well get over their anger about me or others saying that and build a RUCOSS if they feel that strongly about that. Or just stay mad. We have not defined who is in OUR group and neither have we erected boundaries and protected those boundaries. I definitely wouldn’t want all so-called AAs in MY up-close group and many AAs wouldn’t want me in their group either. That would work for me. Still I recognize that we humans are all ONE and that’s what I’ve always promoted, and will continue to do so.

          So, I’m not mad at anybody. I’m not fighting anybody. I’m not jealous of anybody, and I’m not paranoid. With me, “It’s reciprocity, or nothing.” I also believe like my grandmother said : “A closed hand lets nothing get out, but nothing gets IN either.” So, my hand always opens in a common sense way. I embrace like-minded people of all types, and all cultures. I’ve always done that and I won’t change. I and my children wouldn’t be living well today if I hadn’t lived my life that way. I feel comfortable around like-minded people with similar values to mine–of all groups because I have plenty self-pride and pride in my heritage. I’m not awed by people of other groups and I’m not threatened by them. Other folks have to choose the best path for themselves. I offer what I can and advise readers as I always do: “Take what you can use and toss the rest.”

          Re AAs skin shades, next time you go down south, be sure to spend a few days in Charleston, SC. Sounds like you’re not a Lupita fan. Lol I think she’s beautiful. I’ve never seen anything less-than about dark skin, and I’ve never seen anything particularly appealing about either light or white skin. I was never subjected to the usual skin-shade programming because the central figures responsible for my upbringing didn’t believe in that junk.

        • Zee,

          Looking like Lupita is MORE than “skin tone”. Or, do you “MISS” that? If you saw a picture of Lupita, on it’s own, would you categorize her as “AA”? I DON’T THINK SO.

          *I* am NOT “paranoid”. And, if you think *I* have “woe is me” mentality, you OBVIOUSLY are not familiar with me or my writings. LIKE I SAID, I DO NOT AGREE with implementing a “REVERSE paper bag test” in an effort to address differentials in treatment based upon color/features. If you cannot grasp that, then *YOU* should not have BR children.

          I have no problems with HUMAN BEINGS. As I have said before, I am PRO-“human being”. Nevertheless, I DO NOT AGREE with having the American Negro population replaced in representation BY ANYONE–light, dark, foreign, mixed, etc. Furthermore, foreign blacks may change the composition of *blacks* in America, but they cannot change the composition of the American Negro, because they ARE NOT American Negro. They can only create “something else”. Are you able to grasp the distinction between “color” and “ethnicity”? IF SO….THERE IS NOTHING FOR US TO DELIBERATE.

          WHERE in my post did you see a promotion of “segregation”? I’ve only proposed CLEAR “self-definition”. And, I have plenty of friends, etc. who are from other countries or have parents from other countries. I will tell you OTHER CULTURES note a difference between “being born in one land” and “being born in another land”. I’m not going into all that, because my challenge is for AAs to stop BEING BITTER about CERTAIN AAs having the (seemingly) “more acceptable” physical attributes. The fact that you can’t grasp what I’m saying just illustrates my point.

          WHY reject those WHO DO come from you (blood, nation, language, history, etc.) because you’re “upset” they’ve received privileges you necessarily haven’t while EMBRACING those who DO NOT come from you (blood, nation, language, history, etc.) and *think* they can (or are TRYING to) “REPLACE” you?

          That’s not “jealousy” or “pettiness”. That’s “SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST”. If YOU don’t have the “sense” to preserve yourself, NO ONE ELSE is going to make it their “priority”. In fact, many will act like vultures and buzzards “circling around” and “waiting” TO FEAST off your “dying body”.

          Don’t worry about *me* “MOVING FORWARD”. And, don’t worry about *me* being part of the “permanent underclass”. I and my ancestors have already addressed that. And, unless something DRASTIC causes the U.S. to collapse on a “mass scale”, within the next 75 years, I’M STRAIGHT. *You* handle that FOR YOURSELF.

          Hurricane Katrina victims were A SUBSET of AAs. “SUBSET” does not necessarily equal “MAJORITY”. And, if one just wants a “dark-skinned girl representative”, Viola Davis (WHO IS “American Negro”) fulfills the role JUST FINE.

          “This country is known as the land of oppurtunities where anyone can come here and MAKE some of themselves whether they are black, indian, hispanic, asian, ECT..”


          “Just how my best friend is black american because she is black and born here. She faces the same issues we AA women face whether you want to believe it or not.”

          WRONG. Your “Caribbean” friend has an ALTERNATIVE country/identity she and her parents can “run to” should being in the U.S./being an “AA” not work out. American Negroes DO NOT have that alternative. The issues we face ARE NOT “the same” AT ALL.

        • I would advise you not to even interact with “Zee” she is contributing nothing to the conversation except to try and tell black women to “shut up”. I’m all for debates ya’ll know thats what this comments section is for but when you come out and try and simply tell black women to “shut up” or use “you’re crazy” phrasing then I’ve got a problem.

          I’m leaving her comment so everyone else can see her folishness and so others can know exactly what the score is.
          To Zee: I’m not sure if you’re a frequent reader or a new reader but I know haven’t commented before here. If you don’t like the conversation or what AABW think then you’re free to leave. God knows, I’ve heard enough of you. And you haven’t added anything MEANINGFUL. Gooday.

        • Evia,

          My original comment was not directed toward you in any way. You’ve never given me that impression. And, what you stated about your values and worldview is what I have always gathered from reading your works.

          I’ve just noticed that in an effort to “support/uplift” darker AAW/G who have been overlooked, there seems to also be an undercurrent of trying to “push out” those who are/were lighter/less “black”. I just want to know, “how far back are we going to take this?” There were AAs who COULD pass for “white” but chose NOT to, because they valued being “American Negro/AA” (Fredi Washington, for example). And, some of those “white-looking” AAs/Negroes suffered MORE EXTREME discrimination than “dark” AAs of TODAY.

          I also think Lupita is a nice-looking woman. However, I DO NOT AGREE with her becoming some type of AAW/G representative, because the fact is that she IS NOT being treated/received as an AA by the dominant society. She is being received/treated as an “other”. Additionally, since there are a plethora of dark-skinned AAW/G in this country, why can’t one OF THEM be selected to serve as representatives (of AAW/G)? If the objective is to uplift BW in general, then it’s a “free for all”. If the objective is to uplift AAW/G, then an “AAW/G” should be selected. I will say, based upon what I understand of her history, Fredi Washington identifies more with AAs, shares our history AND our blood, and has SUPPORTED AAs more than Lupita has and probably EVER WILL. So, if we just start “castigating” and “removing” people BASED UPON “COLOR”/FEATURES, we will “rob” ourselves of what *truly* belongs to “US”.

          I don’t have a problem with “dark skin”/”African” features OR “kinky” hair. I HAVE ALL THREE. I just don’t conflate the possession of those characteristics with automatically “qualifying” as “AA”/”American Negro”.

          As an additional note, I realize the AA color spectrum goes beyond “Ashanti” and “Keke Palmer”. That’s why I did not use any “All” or “None” universal statements. Furthermore, as you know, there is a difference between “some”, “many”, “most”, “all”, “few”, etc.

          The point of my original post was summed up in this sentence:

          “I JUST WISH AAW/G could figure out how to promote THEIR GROUP without feeling the need to “write off” one typology or another.”

          That statement illustrates I am promoting the inclusion of US ALL (those of us who ARE TRULY “AA”/”American Negro” in heritage).

          But, I agree. We have an “identity crisis” going on. And, I DON’T believe it will be resolved, because we are “too fractured”, as a group. But, the purpose of an online forum is to share thoughts/ideas, and that’s what I did.

        • OLS.

          I already decided that Zee had already maxed out the extent to which I am willing to invest in her. I’m glad she revealed her mindset. I hope that’s not the mental direction younger AAW/G are predominantly take in the future.

          I’ve enjoyed and appreciated the contributions of the commenters on this board. And, I appreciate you allowing me to share my thoughts.

          Thank you.

  48. @Lynn, re

    “I often ‘cringe’ when AA throw the ‘judgement’ accusation at each other. As Khadijah has said, this is a ‘fantasy island’ notion that nobody should be judging other people. The brutal truth is every other ethnic/racial group on the planet judges other people! This is another example of how so many AA’s have it backwards to other groups of people.”

    LOL I didn’t even know Khadija called it that. I just know that I’ve been in forums where the “J” words silences other blacks. It seems that it’s become a magical word. Not sure why. Guess I didn’t get the memo.

    “I’m also glad you talked about how the AA collective fails to pass down critical ‘living well’ knowledge to the next generation. For the past decade, I have dated upper middle class/upper class White men and I know I have not received critical information that would have helped me! It has been a HUGE learning curve . . . ”


    In my first few months of blogging, I learned the hard way from a group of young bw who became like rabid dogs after me that I could only be HALFWAY candid with the typical bw in my readership because if I went all the way, the howling and clawing would give me high blood pressure and I tend to have low blood pressure. AA women (not all) tend to be very hardheaded. If you try to tell them something that may save their lives, they tend to become hyper or very aggressive, and even vindictive, which is the worst because that can go on for months. I’ve experienced this online and offline.

    And God be my witness: Not one of the AA women offline–who I took the risk of telling the whole truth to help them to avoid a disaster with men (in 2 cases) or get into a committed relationship with a quality man who I had vetted for her (1 case)–would listen to me. They became very argumentative and nasty, and 2 of them called me names and actually told me off. LOL! This happened in the past 6 years. All of them have hit rock bottom now. No man, no job, one is sick and they’re all 6 years older. So, these days when they start talking to me about men, which they continue to try to do, I say NOTHING!

  49. Ladies (those who’ve been speaking AND those who’ve been silently reading and mulling things over for yourselves):

    I just want to say for the record how very proud I am of you! The quality of this conversation—especially after it got controversial—(and other recent conversations I’ve seen among AABW) shows that y’all are really coming into your own. It’s another demonstration of how solid certain parts of the BWE victory have become. 🙂

    I’m proud and delighted to see the AABW here diplomatically and constructively push back against narratives that don’t fit or don’t serve your individual interests—no matter who these narratives (ways of framing the issues) are coming from. Including CONSTRUCTIVE, good faith pushback against some of the points of view being expressed by early BWE bloggers. I’m happy to see that—including when individual AABW CONSTRUCTIVELY pushback—in good faith—against some of the things I’M saying.

    None of the early BWE bloggers claimed to be gods or women with perfect knowledge. Just like all other humans, we ALL have our individual blind spots and issues. And if you feel that you’re hearing somebody frame an issue in a way that you feel is inaccurate, you SHOULD pushback. No matter who it is.

    Speaking for myself only, there was a time when I felt it was necessary to use my extremely assertive trial lawyer “tone of voice” to quickly and harshly slap down statements that I felt were harmful to the BWE movement. Because I didn’t feel that I could trust a sufficient number of readers to stay true to the course set by core BWE principles (putting one’s own interests first, requiring on-par reciprocity, etc.).

    Prior to BWE’s *definitive* victory (which I figure has been within the last 18 or so months), there have been so many junctures during which the BWE movement was in grave danger of being derailed from the inside by readers (and a few bloggers who shall remain nameless in this comment) who professed to support BWE principles. All while refusing to follow core BWE principles whenever they had to choose between honoring those principles or carrying on with the Anti-AABW Status Quo Business As Usual.

    One example of this was the deeply disappointing spectacle of many professed BWE supporters running out to support the erasure of their history and image by financially supporting the “Red Tails” movie. And then talking about “it’s just a movie.”

    When challenged, they started the bad faith behaviors of playing dumb and asking what BWE means. As if they hadn’t been readers and participants over a number of YEARS in which core BWE values such as on-par reciprocity were discussed. And frankly, I understand the emotional chains they were still wearing that were tugging at many of them [“I gotta support Granddad and his WWII army buddies even if it means sacrificing MY image and MY history as an AABW.”]

    After all that had been said and done in terms of BWE consciousness-raising, these women STILL could not put their own interests first regarding a movie that they could eventually see for free on cable TV. While claiming to support core BWE principles, these women still felt compelled to shell out their money to support a movie that erased their OWN history as AABW.

    They still felt compelled to shell out their money to support a movie jam-packed with negro male actors who have nothing but disdain for BW. Because they felt it was acceptable to sacrifice their own interests and image as AABW in order to celebrate the Tuskegee airmen and other elderly AABM veterans in their lives. Meanwhile, nobody is sacrificing anything to support or celebrate AABW. All of which just shows how deep the brainwashing is.

    I praise God that this has changed. The BWE victory is won, and I don’t feel the need to be so vigilant or so strident because I feel that I can trust large enough numbers of y’all to properly handle anything that happens to come up. Praise God, enough of y’all “got this”—LOL!

    A critical mass of AABW readers have become UNapologetic about doing what you feel works best for YOU in various contexts. I’m happy to see it, and I’m proud of y’all. It’s not easy to step out of The Matrix. Especially when there are still cyber-gangs of mammy mules and Sista Soldiers. Even moreso when you have loved ones who are still caught up in that mammy mule and/or Sista Soldier brainwashing. I can still remember how disorienting it was to snap out of my previous Black Nationalist [aka Sista Soldier] trance. And while I’m thinking about this, let me publicly say something else:

    I would like to offer a sincere apology to Zabeth (if she’s reading this). When I was still halfway in my previous Black Nationalist trance, I believe I said some unduly harsh things in response to one of your comments years ago at the Ruminations of a Racial Realist blog. At least I think it was you—IIRC you were commenting over there under that screen name. Anyway, I am truly sorry for that. You might have forgotten about this particular incident (one can hope). I haven’t.

    I should have (and wanted to) apologize long before now. But I didn’t want to give the previous swarms of anti-BWE trolls, haters, cyber-stalkers and saboteurs any extra “ammunition” to work with while the BWE movement was still fragile and vulnerable. As I said in a Muslim Bushido post:

    —“There’s a Bitter Black Male Troll who hangs out on Lipstick Alley. This particular Bitter Black Male Troll is totally transparent in his activities. He haunts BWE blogs and BW-centric blogs. He then runs to post misinformation on Lipstick Alley in which he distorts, twists, and sometimes tells outright lies about the conversations going on at various BWE and BW-centric blogs.

    This Bitter Black Male Troll tries to invent imaginary “beef” and “shade” between various BW bloggers—typically in situations in which there’s nothing more going on than a “reasonable minds can differ” philosophical disagreement. This Bitter Black Male Troll doesn’t understand that emotionally mature adults don’t always have to be in 100% agreement with each other.

    What’s hilarious about all of this is that he can’t get any traction for his foolishness and dishonesty. Not even on Lipstick Alley. What he tries to do often backfires; with BW posters over there writing in to say that they agree with the original post by the BW blogger (that the Bitter Black Male Troll either twisted around or deliberately misquoted).”—

    It’s still a shabby excuse for not publicly apologizing to you earlier (after I snapped out of the nationalist trance and came to my senses). It is what it is. And I’m truly sorry about that incident.

    Thankfully, most of these Bitter BM trolls have grown silent and faded away as the BWE victory has become more solid and entrenched in certain respects.

    • This means a lot to me, Khadijah! I will always be grateful to you for how your blog and then your Sojourners Passport book really helped me look at being an AA woman differently. Your writing, along with the other inner work I was doing, helped me to know my power and order my life in a way that ensured my own well being over what others told me AA women should be doing or who we should be sacrificing for. I wasn’t commenting then, I was reading and taking it all in, but you made a difference. Thank you! 🙂

      • I’m happy to hear it! (And no problem about adding an extra “h” to my name—LOL!) I also did a lot of reading and pondering for a long time before I ever sent in my first online comment. Doing introspection and inner work is not easy. I salute every woman who has the courage to dig deep and rethink everything.

    • Khadija,

      Thank you for your kind words and encouragement. It makes me happy when you are proud. I have much to add to this convo *especially* about the trans business but, on the move.

      Once again thank you for your confidence and for everything that you do overall!

  50. Gina,

    Since you’re noticing parallels in terms of various folks seeking to “double dip” (= identify as AA Black when they feel like it in order to steal AAs’ resources), here’s another parallel to consider:

    Cross-dressing men falsely claiming membership in a less-privileged group—women, in this case—in order to hijack access to real women’s safe spaces, image, and resources. It’s the very same dynamic that we’ve been discussing in terms of Black biracials and foreign Blacks looking to claim membership in the AA group (when they feel like it) so they can take AAs’ resources.

    Some WW are NOT having this.

    In terms of strategy, I think it would’ve been better for the writer to call this a declaration of independence or freedom instead of war. Because calling it a declaration of war makes it sound as if women “fired the first shot.” When what has actually happened is that cross-dressing men have been attacking women and attacking women’s safe spaces for decades.

    This entire post really speaks to self-determination. Here are a couple of paragraphs from that post:

    —“. I am a Woman. I will not be re-classified by men who “feel like” women. I will not tolerate being called CIS-woman, biological-woman, genetic-woman, woman-born-woman or female-woman. I will not tolerate being accused of having CIS privilege, obtained illegitimately at the moment of my birth. I will not tolerate being accused of wielding this privilege over men. I will fight back against this misogynistic attack that only seeks to silence me and make me invisible.

    . . . . I am a woman. That word belongs to me. I get to say what that word means. I will not use the word woman or she to include one man. I will not use the word woman or she to describe one man. I will not ally myself with any man who uses woman and she to describe himself no matter how much of a “good guy” he says he is. I will protect the word woman, and in protecting the word woman, I protect my ability to speak about myself, my experience, my future, my past and the entire history of women. You will not rob me of my ability to know my sisters through language. I will fight back against this misogynistic attack that only seeks to silence me and make me invisible.”—

    I rewrote the above paragraph to reflect AAs’ interests:

    I am an African-American. That word belongs to me. I get to say what that word means. I will not use the word African-American to identify people who are not descendants of those Africans who were held in slavery in the United States. I will not use the word African-American to describe biracials. I will not ally myself with any foreign-heritage Black person who uses African-American to describe themselves when they are NOT descendants of those Africans who were held in slavery in the United States. No matter how much they claim to identify with the African-American struggle.

    I will protect the word African-American, and in protecting the word African-American, I protect my ability to speak about myself, my experience, my future, my past and the entire history of my people. You will not rob me of my ability to know my people and my people’s history through verbal trickery. I will fight back against this rewriting of my history that only seeks to silence me, steal my people’s resources and make me invisible.

    As an aside, one problem with using the term “Black American” is that foreign Blacks will try to hijack ANY terminology that AAs use to describe ourselves because they want to double dip into historical AA resources. [They’ll say: “I’m Black and I’m an American citizen. Why can’t I be called a Black American?”]

    • Coincidentally, I read that gender trender article yesterday. Maybe OLS will write an entire post on the trans issue because I think it’s a critical issue that black women need to get clear on. I’ve actually been waiting for it to BE discussed in BWE spaces. I have done so much research into the trans issue and the way (I believe) if we (AABW) aren’t careful, we (well… THEY) will end up supporting our (their) own erasure by a small group of trans-men.

      I think WW will be VERY CLEAR about drawing the line on how they define their womanhood — keeping it pure and specific and “othering” any “surgical females” and locking them out of white female privilege. However, I don’t think black women will be as smart.

      Wait let me be specific: I don’t think black american women, the descendants of slaves, will be as smart because we seem to want cultural validation in any form, even if it’s as a man dressed as a woman and performing as a black woman. What that also means is that I do not believe foreign blacks will be so foolish as to allow their images to be co-opted and erased by men performing as women.

      The general consensus of white women is that Caitlyn is not “one of them”. While Caitlyn may choose to perform as a woman, they aren’t allowing Caitlyn to be DEFINED as a white woman.

      Black women haven’t been so protective of how we are defined.

      Here are a few links of note that I have saved.

      I don’t know how large of a problem the trans issue is, in the “real world” versus how much it might be magnified (or appear larger) because of the “online world” but the effects are chilling and BW need to get clear on these issues.

      • Gina,

        Thanks for the links. No, WW are NOT going to put up with being erased, replaced or ripped off (of resources) by these cross-dressing men.

        I think the trans problem with be a significant but invisible problem. It’ll be a significant problem for the most vulnerable, least protected women—like women prisoners, for example. The problem will be mostly invisible to WW, affluent women, and protected women because they won’t be among the most affected demographics.

        I believe the primary women who will be endangered by cross-dressing men are AA Black women (as always). There are a disproportionate number of AABW in American prisons and jails. So they’ll be in danger if more cross-dressing male prisoners are placed among them. Laverne Cox (and how he’s being promoted by as a “woman” by various entities, including Messence) is a harbinger of increased erasure to come for actual AABW actresses.

        Cross-dressing males will seek to grab scholarship and assorted other resources for girls and women. Guess which group’s resources they’ll feel safest grabbing. Since AAs don’t protect [what should be] our resources, our resources are usually among the first ones to be targeted for “double dipping” by others.

        I don’t think cross-dressing men will be as much of a threat to non-AA women (of all races, including the foreign Black ones). Nobody else except AAs has been programmed with the kumbaya brainwashing. Everybody else’s claws come out fast, quick and in a hurry when they see others trying to take food off *their* plates.

        Time will tell, as it always does. But AABW need to wake the heck up.

  51. Oh, I forgot to mention this, but if you go to Pew Research’s site and look up their last IR relationship and marriage data, crunching the numbers shows a steady increase in BW/WM marriages, with at least 25% of black children born to married parents having a white father.

    It’s a favorable trend, and given that BW/WM marriages have the highest birthrate and one of the lowest divorce rates, AABW face the real possibility that a majority of in-wedlock children of theirs will have white or other nonblack fathers within the next 10-15 years. On a recent related note, the births for unmarried black mothers stayed flat last year, while those for married black women increased about 5%.

    Married BW’s children are increasingly biracial/multiracial because the data says that the BW interested in marrying a quality man of any race are marrying quality nonblack men in higher and higher numbers. I haven’t seen anything about these trends on more mainstream black parts of the ‘net. They’re really interesting for AABW.

  52. @Formavitae, re–

    “So, if we just start “castigating” and “removing” people BASED UPON “COLOR”/FEATURES, we will “rob” ourselves of what *truly* belongs to “US”.


    I’ve been dismayed by lots of the comments in this thread and I’ve been thinking more about some of this in the last couple of days. Many of these comments spring from UNFULFILLED basic needs, drives, desires, longings, disappointed expectations, loneliness, frustration, fears, etc. For ex., I think that MUCH of what has occurred in this thread is due to the intense PAIN that many AA women are experiencing as a result of loss of culture, no protection and nowhere to run to get it, but mainly due to being rejected by AA men (especially those AA men who are higher up in the hierarchy) and replaced by lighter, whiter, “exotic” women. Remember that “Hell has no fury like a woman scorned.” This is very often true. Since I’ve been very well loved by men who are high up in the hierarchy all of my adult life and since I live well, I’ve never even thought much about biracial women or light-skinned women or ww. Also, since I have self-pride and great appreciation for my heritage, nothing any non-AA black person says would bother me or only briefly and I’ve been tested many times over the years. LOL But my experiences are not typical for AA women. I’m an outlier in that respect. If I’d had to scratch to survive and thrive all by myself decade after decade, all alone, and then look around and see virtually all of the better- positioned AA men choosing the lightest-skinned or white chicks simply due to their complexion, I might feel the same way. But I’ve never been attracted to or wanted AA men like that, and ALWAYS looked outside the group for friends and mates, so I know I haven’t missed anything. Y’all can call me a traitor if you want. The truth is that some AA women, and I suspect even some in this thread, would cut off a limb to get a higher-up AA man because for their entire lives (before Evia Moore and a few others–lol), the bulk of typical AA women were “shaped” to ONLY see and try to appeal to AA males as mates.

    The NEEDS to mate and procreate are at the tiptop of the list for humans (and other animals) right after hunger and thirst needs. People have started wars and continue to go to ANY lengths to mate and procreate. Unfulfilled needs are the at the base of ALL wars and even many arguments.


    “I just don’t conflate the possession of those [Lupita’s and similar black women] characteristics with automatically “qualifying” as “AA”/”American Negro”.


    This goes back to the bulk (not all) AA women’s pain and humiliation of being wholesale rejected by AA men. I’m convinced that the lifting up of Lupita by lots of AA women is a result of their excruciating relief that FINALLY, men (albeit) white men (the dominant men) PUBLICLY recognized and elevated a VERY dark-skinned black woman’s beauty, since AA men have wholesale rejected AA women with Lupita’s skin shade and replaced them with almost always LIGHTER-LIGHTEST-WHITEST women, and often for MARRIAGE. Even ordinary AA and similar black males continue to do this more and more everyday in the U.S. The typical AA woman cares nothing about Lupita, per se. She cares about the AA man’s reaction to the elevation of Lupita. Just read some of those black forums after Lupita first started popping up on the magazine covers. Those sistas were waiting with bated breaths for BLACK MEN’s reactions. LOL But the bulk of AA men do not care about Lupita’s beauty– because she’s dark. They don’t care about whether the lighter-whiter or biracial woman has attractive features; they don’t care about her “characteristics.” They only/mainly care about her skin shade and of course her hair is also important to them. But SKIN SHADE and her ability to produce lighter offspring are the biggies since AA males increasingly show that they do not want people who resemble our captured and enslaved ancestors to continue to be born in this country. But this is not the case with ALL bm who marry and procreate with lighter-whiter women.


    “But, I agree. We have an “identity crisis” going on. And, I DON’T believe it will be resolved, because we are “too fractured”, as a group. But, the purpose of an online forum is to share thoughts/ideas, and that’s what I did.”


    But this kind of the very DEEPEST sharing (blabbing) that has occurred in this thread will be viewed as a virtual declaration of war against black women of other ethnicities, black biracial women, and others, and this is TRAGIC beyond words. AA women cannot afford this. Blabbing PUBLICLYwithout thought of consequences has occurred here. ONLY “fractured” AAs do this publicly. Others have declared war against AAs too, but they don’t do it PUBLICLY. They NEVER will. They don’t forewarn us. Doesn’t anyone read Machiavelli anymore? (sigh) I’ve asked the universe’s forgiveness for any role I may have played in any of this. For ex, I know how some of these other black ethnic women generally think and they will spread the word that these “fractured” AA women don’t like and reject them and to them, this means that ANY of us AA women might do them or their relatives harm in some way. And THEY DO listen to each other. Whereas, I as an AA woman, understand that most of these comments have come from the typical AA’s lack of self/group pride and lack of knowledge about their own rich heritage and laziness to learn it and general lack of self-agency, when you start telling persons in other groups to GET OUT and pile up on them, they don’t know and don’t care about any of that. AAs really need to heal themselves of what a prominent PHD AA woman has written books and lectures on that she calls POST TRAUMATIC SLAVERY DISORDER (PTSD). I’ll look for her name later.

    I think that whereas there was nothing wrong with the motivation for SOME of this, in general this has been handled very poorly. Instead, teaching, discussing, urging AA women to learn and be proud of the specifics of their heritage without mentioning ANY others at all would have made virtually all of this lashing out against organized, networked others unnecessary. When you like, appreciate, and feel pride in yourself and your group’s heritage, you automatically move silently –not only looking out for yourself ‘first and foremost’ as a woman, but looking out for your identity group’s interests. SELF & GROUP PRIDE AND APPRECIATION FOR HERITAGE = the antidote. However, as a result of this thread, scads of lasting enemies for AA women have been created for a long time, and the worst part about that is that we are “fractured” as you say. AA women are not organized or networked to back each other up the way these other groups DO. I’ve lived among hierarchically-high up Africans and upper middle class whites now–for many decades. I know the way BOTH groups operate automatically, invisibly, and silently to aid and bolster others in their identity group. The overwhelming most AA women on these forums don’t even trust each other even nearly enough to let other AA women here know who they are or where they live. BUT I’m not encouraging anyone to trust anyone –because of that PTSD thing. I’m just saying that even if some here wanted to have each other’s back offline, most of you do not trust each other enough to do it. Admit that. Trust me. Almost ALL of these black ethnic women are connected to each other in their groups, in one way or another. Africans and some Caribbeans (along with other immigrants) are moving on up in the U.S., hierarchically, according to the stats, and there are now budding networks between Africans and Caribbeans, while AA women are not connected to ANYBODY, not even to each other. And AA men are gone.

    So yeah, some of you have gotten things off your chest, but will your ‘feelgood’ gains today equal the potentially impending losses?

    • Evia,

      I agree that many AAW/G are grieving, AND RIGHTFULLY SO. I don’t really believe the type of deeply rooted, extended pain many AAs suffer TRULY “heals”. For example, although I have moved forward with my life, and though I am open to happiness irrespective of classifications, my heart MOURNS over the disintegration of my people, and I don’t think that hurt will ever go away. It isn’t going to stop me from pursuing a positive life, but I do think I will always experience a sense of “absence”, once the breakdown of the AA collective is complete.

      What, I think, truly bothers me is that I feel/believe the discrimination AAW/Gs face is transitioning from a “racial” discrimination to an “ethnic” discrimination, and I don’t think many AAW/G GET that. On the surface, “Lupita” (I’m putting her name in quotation marks, because she could be anyone/group/etc being substituted for AAs) being promoted seems like a nice “victory” for little black girls, with the assumption that little AAG are included TOO. However, when I look at the situation, what *I* see (my OWN personal thought) is that AAG are moving into a position in which they are going to be “TOO black” AND “not black ENOUGH”. Reality is that AAs have ALWAYS been discriminated against for having “African” blood. Now, a TRUE African can gain acceptance/be celebrated, while we CONTINUE to face a discrimination originally predicated upon our African heritage.

      Can anyone else see the irony?

      Another example of this is that it’s common “joking” fodder to “make fun” of AA names. But, I don’t really hear people making jokes about complex/different/unique FOREIGN black names. Why? Because it’s not “just blacks” who are being discriminated against. It’s *AAs* who are being discriminated against.


      And, I *CERTAINLY* am not going to kick out someone who shares my blood/ancestry just because they’re “light”/”pass the paper bag test”/”less black” and embrace “her” (“Lupita”) INSTEAD.

      Evia, I ALWAYS appreciate your interpretation. I ALWAYS appreciate your wisdom.

      I, myself, was “getting caught up in emotions”. I HATE seeing AAs exploited. And, I HATE seeing AAs “shoot themselves in the foot”.

      IT IS important to maintain a calm, clear mind. IT IS important to consider strategy and execution. Unfortunately, since we meet online, rather than in person, our thoughts and discourse are “laid bare” for others to see. This is one of the challenges of internet communication.

      • —Can anyone else see the irony?—

        YES! I see the irony. The irony is that Female Monoracial-Black Americans who are the descendants of Black American slaves who were enslaved in America see themselves/ourselves included in the victory of “Lupita” when in reality it’s a victory for the “new” class of “better negroes, new and improved version 2.0” that we may not be considered a part of and cannot take for granted that they will feel the solidarity to “hold the doors open” for the Female descendants of Monoracial-Black American slaves who were enslaved in America to ensure that others belonging to that group are uplifted also.

        That “Lupita” could not have been in the position to be so celebrated in American popular culture if not for the groundwork laid by Female Monoracial-Black Americans who are the descendants of Black American slaves who were enslaved in America. And that, often, when a “black” person is chosen by “the culture” to be celebrated it is NOT one of the Female Monoracial-Black Americans who are the descendants of Black American slaves who were enslaved in America.

        • “when in reality it’s a victory for the “new” class of “better negroes, new and improved version 2.0″

          EXACTLY! (LOUD simultaneous hand clap!)

          And, the “improved version 2.0” will include MANY with very dark skin and very kinky hair, while many dark, medium, and light (w/o a non-black parent) AAs will continue to be disenfranchised.

          “That “Lupita” could not have been in the position to be so celebrated in American popular culture if not for the groundwork laid by Female Monoracial-Black Americans who are the descendants of Black American slaves who were enslaved in America.”

          YEP. And, in Hollywood, actresses like Fredi Washington, Lena Horne, and Dorothy Dandridge forged the pathway. Actresses like Ethel Waters, Diahann Carroll, and Juanita Moore ALSO were important in opening/extending those doors. But, in the context of my original post, the first three were more applicable to my statement, as they had the “more acceptable/mainstream” looks.

          “often, when a “black” person is chosen by “the culture” to be celebrated it is NOT one of the Female Monoracial-Black Americans who are the descendants of Black American slaves who were enslaved in America.”

          That’s what I’M seeing. AAs can’t even get movie roles to play “AAs”. And, the AA population is NOWHERE NEAR “extinct”. But, I guess, if it “looks black”, if it “has a nappy head”, it’s “all good”. (NOT TO ME)

    • Evia, this is why I may discuss bits of these conversations on some of the blog social networks, but I don’t write blog-level posts engaging in a “shots-fired” tactic on these subjects. I do think there are areas of concern, but they’re not standalone compared to all the other ones. As a blog forum host discussing the negative impact of DBRs has been volatile enough. Given so much has been integrated, but so much has also been ignored the cost analysis has to be considered.

      I thought about writing a post re: trans activism vs. the patriarchy vultures and how it will impact black women BUT I’m seriously asking whether it’s personally worth it. I will and do discuss it on social media, but there are repercussions at play in how the conversation would be framed and the way people will intentionally misinterpret it.

      Also, I have used my real name (which if I had to do it all over again I would not) and have had to deal with that backlash PERSONALLY from mostly AA women sabotaging me where they could over discussing the behavior of black males alone! It makes building relationships challenging and very difficult to put one’s neck out especially when other AA women (who claim to be in agreement) are only marginally supportive in return as it is.

      I understand the concerns about whether a Lupita would reciprocate to AA women career-wise, but I also know her team ran a great Oscar campaign at the time and she’s a celebrated beauty whose image has mostly been good for all black women. I know that many young black girls got a much-needed boost seeing her lauded. Which to me is providing some reciprocity and benefits.

      There’s an incident now with a 16 year old biracial actress (whose black mother is a rich mocha shade) getting press and pushback for going to bat for the black woman collective and eloquently discussing cultural appropriation. She’s a minor. You have to weigh the concerns for having someone biracial becoming a defacto spokesperson for black women with the fact that she’s behaving like an ally. Because she codes more black than biracial I’m sure it’s missed by some people as well.

      It would be counterproductive to be hard-lined about separating her from the black women collective or considering her a threat, but so would ignoring any potential future alliance issues. So…short-term and long-term goals have to be considered. At this point I think we have to carefully consider not throwing out the baby with the bathwater – in addition to not being passive – but it is fine line that requires some thought.

      I think so many AA are still working out their identity and self-pride and authenticity that stringent boundaries may be needed…but only to a point. Just like compassion to other people’s own struggles can be expressed while still taking care of your own. The pendulum swings very far one way or the other and more balance is needed.

    • Thank you for sharing, Evia. I am going to listen to this. I appreciated the links you provided to Dr. Sizemore’s lectures. I REALLY enjoyed them.

  53. Ladies,

    Don’t let ANYBODY try to shame you into silence about the various wrongs that have been done to AABW by VARIOUS categories of others.

    Don’t let ANYBODY try to shame you into silence about the various PATTERNS of exploitation that AABW are being subjected to. Because when you speak your truth and your experiences, you’re preventing other AABW and girls from being blindsided by some very [unfortunately] common negative experiences they’ll be confronted with when they get out into the world among others.

    Don’t accept ANYBODY dismissing your consciousness-raising discussions as “getting things off your chest” or a “feelgood.”

    Don’t let ANYBODY silence you about the matters that are important to YOU. Whether that person trying to silence you is me, Evia, or anybody else.

    I’m always dismayed whenever I see AAs guard-dogging and pit-bulling for outsiders—especially for outsiders who DON’T have a visible, established or existent track record of pit-bulling in support of AAs.

    I’m always dismayed whenever I see AAs giving outsiders much more basic courtesy than they give their own people (speaking with courtesy and consideration to outsiders while using the most harsh and discourteous, dismissive—and frankly insulting—manner of speaking with their own people).

    Another part of that guard-dog pattern is that trespasses (large and small) that outsiders commit against AAs are dismissed, minimized and excused with victim-blaming the AA victims. By contrast, when AAs speak their truths and reject being victimized, the mere act of speaking our truth is characterized as somehow constituting acts of aggression or declarations of war against outsiders who are ALREADY taking hostile action against AAs. The slightest verbal refusal to kowtow to oppressors and exploiters is characterized as aggression.

    A real declaration of war would be for AAs to start responding and reacting to Black foreigners the way White Americans have begun to respond and react to Mexican illegal aliens.

    A real declaration of war would be for AAs to mobilize to lobby Congress to get serious about getting illegal alien Black foreigners OUT of the U.S. A real declaration of war would be for AAs to start doing what White do and start “dropping dimes” on possible illegal alien Black foreigners—oh, like more than a few of the African hair-braiding shacks that set up shop in AA neighborhoods—and inform U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement about these folks. A real declaration of war would be for AAs to lobby to have all these various AA civil rights martyr-created resources limited to AAs (folks who are descended from the Africans held in slavery in the U.S.).

    There’s a whole LOT of stuff AAs could crack down on if any of us were really declaring war against foreign Blacks who come to our country and are bad guests when interacting with AAs. Nobody has said anything like the above.

    It’s interesting—the basic Bitter Black Male/Abusive Male/Oppressor Of All Categories technique is to dismiss women’s real and legitimate concerns and grievances about sexism and other forms of exploitation as being the result of irrational emotionalism, or “hell hath no fury,” etc. That’s the reason why Internet Ike Turners and their female handmaidens looove to accuse any AABW who won’t cooperate with being dogged of being “bitter” and [sexually and otherwise] unsatisfied with life.

    From what I’ve read, DBR males were flinging this “bitter” and [sexually and otherwise] unsatisfied with life insult/accusation against women who refused to be exploited during the early 1970s. It’s time to come up with some new cliches to use when trying to silence women. 🙂

    That “Y’all must be bitter” accusation is a tired, played out, cliche-sort of accusation that betrays a lack of original thought. I’d like to see some *new and improved* Silencing AABW Techniques because this dusty old “bitter” accusation is boring—LOL!

    Another humorous aspect to this is that the same played-out and cliche “bitter”/unsatisfied accusations can be flipped back on the accusers—one might wonder why they’re sooooo very invested in trying to silence somebody else’s conversation. Because when I see conversation in which I fundamentally disagree with the majority of those talking, I walk away and get back to enjoying the rest of my day. I don’t break my stride for—or persist in dipping into—what I feel is erroneous stuff. I keep it moving.

    Ladies, you’re free to do whatever works best for you, to think your own thoughts, and to speak your own truth and experiences whenever you want to. Thank goodness.

    • Khadija,

      Whenever you “speak”, in the back of my head, I hear, “Martin or Malcolm?” “Malcolm or Martin?”

      I ALSO appreciate YOUR interpretation and wisdom.

      Your writings always help me parse out my own thoughts and clarify my views, whether I reach the same conclusion(s) as you, or not. That’s VERY IMPORTANT.

      Thank you.

    • Yes, although there’s a difference between unconcerned folks who are already leeches and enemies pulling basic Derailing For Dummies tactics and mislabeling accountability for “violence”, “judgment” and the other frequented terms “haters”, “crazy” or “angry” to prevent awareness-raising and accountability AND reminding women there’s a moment for their expression and then there has to be a mental and emotional progression in their development to avoid being stuck.

  54. I’m talking about PUBLIC, blabbing behavior where AA women are broadcasting their distaste for other ethnic blacks with venom. When you spew venom, you create enemies. “Who benefits?” I’m advising that individual AA women would truly have the VICTORY if they direct their efforts toward healing themselves with self-pride and INTERNALIZED knowledge of their own heritage. That’s the real victory because that would cover most of these present-day situations. I’m talking about private efforts like the National Black Women’s Health Project started by Billye Avery where there arose thousands of small groups of AA women across the country who came together in their little towns and communities to heal themselves with the help of each other. This could be done on the internet these days, but PRIVATELY.

    After all of the lashing out and going toe-to-toe with sharp-tongued retorts, those AA women will still be among the walking wounded. Plenty of AA women are already known for being Sapphires and having the sharpest tongues on the planet but that has not helped us. Instead AA women are known for being “difficult,” being “Bad Bytches” and having “attitudes.” If that helps anyone feel better, then go on with it.

    I also don’t want AA women to create more enemies and more isolation/segregation for AA girls and young women. We need help in this world. None of us can fly solo or not for long, and I’ve been saying all of this for years. Nothing I’m saying here is new. There’s a reason why some people in other groups tend to shy away from ALL AAs more and more and the cause of that is the often outlandish behavior of many AAs (male and female) on the internet and other media during the last decade. After all of the lashing out against bm, those males continue to use that to bond with other women, and go on with their program. And as many AA women continue to direct so much energy to get bm’s attention, it does nothing more than increase the value of those men and helps them to get what they want, which may be only short term relationships with other women, but that’s usually all they want. Also, I was happy to hear of the incresase in BW-IR, but I wondered how many of those marriages involved AA women. Other ethnic black women have jumped on the IR train and they are not known for having “attitudes.”

    Anyone is welcome to say I’m caping for Africans or that I’ve become like a ‘DBR’ or ‘bitter black male’ (OMG–the irony, lol) but those are only words to me. I’m going to be honest for both sides. We need a new MINDSET in the world and certainly among blacks. If we’re going to be honest about this, it’s not like AAs don’t also insult Africans, Haitians and others, based on their African phenotypes and call them foul things like “monkeyface” and “African bootyscratchers,” etc. and ask them all kinds of insulting things about the savage lifestyle that they “surely” must have had since they grew up in Africa or these other places. This is VERY common. Maybe some of y’all don’t realize this? I’ve heard this stuff for decades. Don’t y’all realize the usual hate that many Africans and other non-mixed looking black folks get from AAs simply because they look like they’re supposed to look? Some of it gets too ugly to mention. This is why I believed Dr. de Gruy’s video would be very informative and possibly helpful. But it does no good to try to make one side look like devils and the other like angels.

    • I wouldn’t say you are caping for Africans. But I will say that you have a vested interest in your position because of your past marriage, children, and ties with the Nigerian community, coupled with the reality that your words here are “linkable” to your identity (as opposed to those of us using screen names). So I understand.

      But you can protect that interest without wagging a finger at AA women who haven’t lived the same life experience you have, and thus have a vastly different perspective. And you can also do that without holding these SPECIFIC women accountable for GROUP actions of OTHER blacks past and/or present. And you can also do that without making blanket generalizations about the women and our perspectives/motivation, especially when those generalizations are negative and insulting.

      In short, you can protect your vested interests without throwing “us” under the bus to do so.

      • Gina, thanks for your effort to understand but my ex-husband is SUPER harsh about Nigerian behavior and OPENLY, so nothing I could possibly say about Nigerians would bother him if he read something negative I may write about them. In all the years I was with him, he never tried to silence me either.

        Also, re me throwing AA women under the bus, I think that anyone who has read even a tiny amount of my work for the past 9 years might disagree with you about that. Also, I have an AA daughter-in-law and granddaughter who will primarily be viewed as AA.

        And when comments were made above about the incidents with the Haitian woman and other black ethnics, those WHOLE groups of ethnics were mentioned–not just those individuals.

        The obvious point I’m making here is that we need to bridge these divisions, not cause them to widen.

        • –The obvious point I’m making here is that we need to bridge these divisions, not cause them to widen.–

          Understood. But, as much as I hate to backtrack, part of the reason this thread ended up with a lot of comments was because *I* didn’t see the full picture behind drawing a line in the sand between biracial blacks and blacks with two black parents. I was the only one who didn’t see it.

          Then the conversation shifted to drawing a line in the sand (not a war, not a battle) between descendants of slave blacks and foreign born or first generation american born blacks.

          But… it’s the exact same principle.

          So if it makes sense for AABW to protect their interests against misuse by biracial black women, how does it also not make sense to do the same when it comes to BW who are not the descendants of slaves?

          If we can’t presume that biracial black women will show reciprocity, why must we presume that non slave descended blacks WILL?

          If it is good for the goose, why isn’t it good for the gander?

        • Gina, umm I don’t know if anyone taught you this, but umm MANY mono-racial black immigrants and first generation Americans like myself ARE in fact the descendants of slaves. However I am Caribbean, just how slavery left your guys a nasty legacy, it left the same to us. African-Americans were not the only black people that were enslaved. In fact the vast majority of slaves went to Latin America.
          I myself am for ALL black women, and when I say black women, I don’t mean half black. There is a difference between being biracial and black. There is no such thing as a biracial black person. Black is black. Biracial is Biracial.

        • –MANY mono-racial black immigrants and first generation —

          I know that many foreign born blacks are the descendants of slaves, but you know what, I don’t really have any way to clearly define what I’m talking about without using long descriptors or acronyms. So let me make it clear.

          Black Americans who are the descendants of Black American Slaves that were brought to America, enslaved in America, and contributed to the building of the foundation of this country which we call America.

          –There is no such thing as a biracial black person. —

          Fine. Biracial (Black). I used that phrase previously because earlier when I used biracial it was pointed out that Asian/Whites are also Biracial and I used it to distinguish between those with one black parent and no black parents.

          So let me be clear: Biracial people/children with at least one parent of Black heritage defined as Black Americans who are the descendants of Black American slaves who were enslaved in America.

        • Oh okay ! I hope you didn’t take any umbrage at what i wrote btw. I GET what you’re saying now. 🙂

        • —I hope you didn’t take any umbrage at what i wrote btw—

          Not really, but if you don’t want someone to be offended by what you wrote, you might want to be careful about statements like this:

          “I don’t know if anyone taught you this, but umm”

        • Moriah,

          “MANY mono-racial black immigrants and first generation Americans like myself ARE in fact the descendants of slaves. However I am Caribbean, just how slavery left your guys a nasty legacy, it left the same to us. African-Americans were not the only black people that were enslaved. In fact the vast majority of slaves went to Latin America.”

          I am not “instigating”, “challenging”, “attacking”, “discrediting”, or anything of the kind your statements. I am just going to share something *I* had never considered before, until it was presented to me.

          YEARS ago, I read a book by Thomas Sowell. (He’s a black Conservative, just to provide context.) Anyway, I believe it is his book, “Race and Culture”, that I am referencing. I read this over 10 years ago, so I don’t want to get into too many specifics, as I have not refreshed my memory/reviewed his writings before typing this post.

          Anyway, as I told you or another poster, whenever I study/learn something, I always like to remember a fact/idea/analytical tool that I can “carry with me”, as I will not be able to remember EVERY detail, fact, etc. One thing that he opened my eyes to was the difference in the slave experiences of Africans/blacks in our part of the world. He was actually discussing why AAs and Hispanics have such differences in their definition of “black”. Our slavery experiences were heavily influenced by the thinking of the Europeans who enslaved us.

          For example, Spaniards and Portuguese had a concept of “whitening/becoming white”, while British/Anglo Saxons did not. So, in Latin America, you have many terms for defining the specifics of a person’s composition, while in the United States, you’re “black”. Furthermore, if one is not pure African/Negro, they can buy their way into a “white/whiter” categorization. He mentioned an actual situation in which a comment was made along the lines of, “He was mulatto. Now he is white.”

          He also talked about how the concept of “whitening” was influenced by the numerical situation whites found themselves in. In Latin America, where whites were often outnumbered by their slaves/other nonwhites, “whitening” was used more frequently and was PROMOTED. Here, in the U.S., where whites had large numbers and also brought over many white women with them, the ideology of “whitening” never took hold–even though whites were still breeding children with blacks. He also discussed the influence of these factors on the apartheid system in South Africa.

          I don’t want to get into his “arguments” too much, because too much time has passed since I reviewed what he said. And, I don’t like to distort someone else’s message/work, ESPECIALLY when I have respect for them. He’s another person whose opinion/perspective I enjoy considering. I don’t necessarily always agree with him. But, I enjoy reading him to provide a “counterbalance” to the “typical” AA political “group think”.

          I’m not advising you to seek him out, or anything. You have to decide what ideas/values you want to investigate, consider, and adhere to. I’m just sharing theses thoughts because he helped me understand that while many blacks were slaves, we did not all have the same experiences, and those differences caused us to have different perspectives, social structures, and the like. So, being a Caribbean American slave IS different from being a continental U.S. slave.

        • Formvitae,
          I am Grenadian-American. Not black latina (that whitening ideology was created in Latin America).
          I kind of laughed reading your comment because AA women like yourself seem to look at us ‘foreign blacks’ as you call us through rose colored glasses. You guys seem to think the grass is greener on the other side. Caribbeans may have you feel that we’re different (save face) but I’m here to tell you we’re not. PLEASE believe me. Why do you think so many Non-AA women mono-racial black women come on blogs like these? BECAUSE WE’RE HAVING THE SAME PROBLEMS AND DEALING WITH THE SAME BULLSHIT ESPECIALLY WITH BLACK MEN!!! When i started reading black women empowerment blogs by khadijah and Halima i was so happy because it helped me and resonated with me!

          In fact just last week, I met a haitian and black cuban woman last week on vacation and everything you guys are discussing is the same thing we’re (you guys) are saying on this blog. As my mom told me several days ago, no one has anything nice to say about black men!
          I don’t want any AA women to resent me. I don’t see AA women as the enemy or inferior (My best friend is biracial and half AA) The things we have learned from each other has been beneficial to the both of us!; and I really want AA women like yourself to know that. I was shocked seeing these comments about ‘foreign blacks’. A lot of pain and anger that is understandable, from both sides as we black women are stuck in a hard place.
          Yes! I would say the slave experience was different in Spanish/Latin Countries. BUT DEFINITELY NOT non-spanish countries. But yeah just wanted to tell you that.
          Oh and like you said, I just want black women to be in peace. It’s so exhausting being a bw in America sometimes. Sigh.

        • Moriah,

          The slave mentality of BM is GLOBAL, and BW and children are suffering everywhere. I clearly see and understand that. In past years, that was ALL I saw, along with the suffering of various peoples around the world. I STILL see and care about those things. I’m in my current profession because I care about helping PEOPLE.

          However, in recent years, I’ve noticed the unique situations AAs find themselves in. Their ancestors have provided MUCH opportunity, but AAs get little respect and reap a diminishing proportion of those returns, with each passing year. AAs HAVE no alternative home, country, etc. of their own to return to, if things don’t work out here .

          SURE, other countries have their challenges. But, should their emigrants decide to return, there may be “a home” still in place to “salvage” to some degree. In other words, these people have a “bypass”. They can use the U.S. As a “bypass” around their issues in their home countries, and they can use their home countries as a “bypass” around their issues in the U.S. AAs DO NOT HAVE THIS OPTION. THE U.S. IS BOTH our “land of opportunity” AND our “home of origin”.

          As different people with different backgrounds, it is not surprising that we have different perspectives. I don’t believe any of the women on this post have a problem with “foreign blacks per se. They just have a problem with AAs being marginalized “in THEIR OWN houses” whose doors they so graciously and charitably opened to others. (Others who did not pay the down payment or the mortgage, btw)

        • Ok Formvitae, I completely understand and respect what you’re saying. What you’re saying is correct indeed! Truthfully, I’m looking forward to seeing the state of black people in the U.S. in the next 5- 10 years…

      • I appreciate your comment and the way you have phrased this Gina. This was something I wasnt hitting on that you did, so thank you.

  55. “However, as a result of this thread, scads of lasting enemies for AA women have been created for a long time, and the worst part about that is that we are “fractured” as you say. AA women are not organized or networked to back each other up the way these other groups DO.”

    All this is going to occur because of one thread on one page on one blog within the massive internet space? What’s with the extremes?

    I would venture to say that these “scads of lasting enemies” probably weren’t that invested in Black American (descendants of slaves) women from the onset. So generally speaking they were going to be, whats the phrase, No to Low Value to us anyways. As such, a few women speaking their peace about real lived experiences that can help others actually didn’t add any fuel to the fire.

    I’m not sure where any of this is coming from, but Evia you keep admonishing us BAW for being for US. I am so confused. We have a right to put our foot down and to do so does not mean we are scorned or are jealous, inferior or the like. And as this is a public forum we established those boundaries publicly.

    No one here hates, at least I know I don’t, these other types of women. But what I wont allow is for these women to step on my neck to try and snag MY rightful position. Now as I have said prior, I respect all the work you have and continue to do for BW, but this new stance that you are taking is problematic for me. I don’t agree with all the names you are calling and insults you are hurling such as we need to sue our parents and we are scorned and such.

    I think your ire was up when we asked APA some critical questions about her participation in this discussion and you didn’t cotton to it. And from there, you have been quite disagreeable towards us when everyone is being extremely respectful and deferential to you.

    • –All this is going to occur because of one thread on one page on one blog within the massive internet space? What’s with the extremes?–

      Yeah, that.

      –I’m not sure where any of this is coming from, but Evia you keep admonishing us BAW for being for US. —

      Not just being US, but it’s really coming across like we’re being admonished because we have “typical” AA life experiences and not this outlier life experience. And because of that, we MUST be like XYZ.

  56. If my commentary on “Reverse paper bag test(ing)” and not agreeing with embracing Lupita contributed to any misunderstandings between such an INTELLIGENT, WELL-INTENTIONED, and INSPIRATIONAL group of women, I APOLOGIZE. I just expressed one of my private frustrations, when maybe I should have kept it to myself.

    PARTICULARLY, with the early BWE writers, we know and understand the truth of their character, thoughts, and motivations. ALL PARTIES are worthy of *NO LESS* than HONOR AND RESPECT.


  57. Soul Alive, be true to yourself. If you don’t like what I write here or anywhere else, please don’t read it or delete it. Don’t be confused. I’m not trying to lead anyone or campaign for office. I’m being true to myself and I always will be.

    Also, this is not just about APA. I can’t remember what she even said now. I assumed she, like everyone else, was just expressing her opinions. I DO remember the way she was pushed to GET OUT and the lack of decorum used and the piling up on her was quite disturbing. Now, I’m being likened to a ‘DBR’ and a ‘bitter black male’ so I’m sure that I’ll get my walking papers soon too.

    It seems that some AA women are beginning to fight EVERYBODY, and projecting issues onto everyone else. That should help them to see that they themselves need to work on themselves more. But not PUBLICLY because that only creates more issues for AA girls and women. So, that’s why I made some suggestions. AA women need to admit that they are hurting and stop trying to showboat about how “strong” and “resilient” they are. We need each other and we need others outside the group too. You NEVER know who might become your allies and supporters in life. Remember that AA women once THOUGHT AA men were going to be there all the way for them and now find themselves looking toward wm, instead, after hurling all kinds of insults at “de evil wm,” for years.

    I guess I’m most confused about the reaction to my comments. Lol I’ve ALWAYS been about bringing people together. I majored in Cultural Anthropology in college. I mingle widely with other groups and married into 2 groups. I’ve openly stated that many times. I believe in intercultural, interracial, multicultural relationships. I BELIEVE in dialoguing with others. I am perfectly willing to dialogue with black ethnics here or anywhere, but they’ve been silenced or pushed out here.

    I don’t understand why just because a person of another black ethnic group expresses their opinion about AAs, they are felt to be “intruding” or trying to “take over” and pushed out. I often express my opinions when I’m among whites, Iranians, and Africans, and I’ve never been asked why I’m there or pushed to leave.

    But my laundry almost done and I am packing for vacation, so don’t mind me.

    • Fair enough. But do you not see how telling Black women what they are feeling is wrong and assigning names to them and such would be detrimental? This is another chief reason why some Black women feel smothered and afraid to express themselves. As once they do here comes some other BW to say what they are feeling is wrong and they are only acting/responding that way because they are deficient in some manner.

      How is THAT helpful?

      “I don’t understand why just because a person of another black ethnic group expresses their opinion about AAs, they are felt to be “intruding” or trying to “take over” and pushed out. I often express my opinions when I’m among whites, Iranians, and Africans, and I’ve never been asked why I’m there or pushed to leave.”

      And so whites and Iranians and Africans welcome your opinion on their specific identity issues? Is that what you’re saying? Cause that’s what this is when we only asked APA from which frame of reference she was speaking.

      I don’t see where any of this is coming from. I am in good faith being respectful, but it’s not being reciprocated. I am not fighting with you or lashing out as you mention. You are seeing things one way and others are expressing to you that your way is not absolute.

      “AA women need to admit that they are hurting and stop trying to showboat about how “strong” and “resilient” they are. We need each other and we need others outside the group too. You NEVER know who might become your allies and supporters in life.”

      No one here stated that they were faking any attempts at being the strong Black woman. So again, that’s a reach on your part. And to the balance, because BW will never know who we will need in the future we should allow anyone in to our conversations/spaces now. You know cause they “may” be there for us in the future.

      How bout we look at history and see how much these foreign born Blacks have been there for us previously? From what I have seen most Black Americans go out of their way to help foreign born Blacks (Haiti, South Africa, Brazil, Rwanda – wherever) and rarely is that reciprocated. So we should believe that a subset of foreign born Blacks who previously had only shown up to take from AA’s will then turn it around and help us out or be there in the future? Sure…

      Enjoy your vacation I hope you have a blast!

      • Soul Alive, I hope you know there are AT LEAST 2 sides to every situation.

        I’m expressing my opinions and nothing that anyone here says should be considered an “absolute,” as you mentioned. ‘Take what you can use, . . .”

        I’m used to wide-ranging opinions. I don’t get angry and I’m not trying to make anyone angry. I’m not wired like that. Quite the opposite. The whites I’ve mingled among are not the FOX News type. The ones I’m around tend to listen carefully and try to figure out whether you’re bringing value because they’re more interested in resolving the situation than they are in who said what. As I mentioned before, if the Africans think you’re bringing value, they will take notes. And the Iranians are always very hospitable, open, and will discuss things in detail. Obviously, these are not the ones we hear about on the news.

        Virtually all of the African blacks I’ve met have mentioned many times to me that AAs are not interested in them, or in their language or their culture. They wonder why we’d prefer to practice a made-up practice like Kwanzaa (which I too have practiced) instead of an actual genuine African practice. They say AAs consider them as Tarzanlike characters due to the media and that this is why many AAs don’t go on vacation to Nigeria, the Congo, or Zambia, and instead try to go to Egypt (if they go to Africa) where white-skinned blacks are. That’s an imbalanced view of AAs, so I’ve always pointed out that many serious-minded AAs do go to other African countries and some try to learn the languages, the culture, and live there. Have you read about Pan-Africanism? Pan Africanism did launch several successful enterprises between Africans and AAS, but that fell by the wayside and probably due to both sides.

        I know you’re trying to follow the script and I don’t mean to mess that up, but I would ask you: Are you basing your belief that Africans (meaning none of them) don’t/won’t reciprocate on your experiences or on what someone else told you? How much do you mingle with Africans?

        It was an East African woman from our church who took my youngest son (when he was 15) with her to her country (won’t mention it here) simply because he told her he wanted to go to East Africa. He went and stayed there with her and her family for a month. We paid his plane fare and gave him some spending money. That was all. I told him to keep a journal and he did. He’s in his early thirties now and still reads that journal. He will tell you that was the high point of his life. What had we done for this woman? Nothing.

        Bridging divisions has lots of potential for all groups.

        • Evia,

          I agree with what you are saying about bridging the gaps. I am happy for your input and I thank you sincerely for indulging me with your time and words!

  58. Evia,

    As much as I respect you and your work, the truth is AAs and in particular AABW/BGs (what concerns me the most since I’m AA), have EVERY RIGHT to define our boundaries and borders. Khadija has pointed out many times how threatened other groups get when they see AAs attempt to establish the same boundaries every other ethnic group does. NO ONE has a right to tell us how/what to do about that. No one has a right to tell us what to do with the few resources left in the AA collective.

    This is not declaring war or disparaging other ethnic groups. It’s exercising common sense. I understand because of your past history that you don’t see it that way and that’s fine. But, in my opinion, the majority of the readership are in support of establishing boundaries. I definitely think that it’s long overdue. You’re not going to change hearts and minds by making absurd accusations like ‘we’re declaring war’ which puts people on the defensive. If you disagree you should be respectful about it. So far everyone who has responded to you has been respectful and has not resorted to exaggerations and name-calling.

    I want to say thank you, OLS for allowing the discussion to continue!

    • Lynn, thanks. And no one has said y’all shouldn’t define your boundaries. I certainly do and I’ve actually written several articles about that on the Ezine years ago. Remember when I talked about the “Butterfly’s” behavior and how bw don’t have to talk if they don’t want to and should learn to talk without saying anything and to never BLAB or say anything that will come back to bite them in the butt, etc. I will be publishing some of those articles, so you’ll see I’ve said it all before.

      None of this exactly comes as no surprise to me. This is exactly why I define as a PAB. I don’t think the way typical AA women think about many/most of these issues and I’ve said that countless times on my Ezine. AAs have told me that I don’t think the way an AA is “supposed” to think, all of my life, and tried to jerk me into line. I’m happy that’s not possible because I don’t see how the typical AA mindset helps them. This is why it has always amazed me why so many of y’all read the Ezine and seemed to agree with my opinions there where I’ve expressed exactly what I’ve mentioned here.

      Not that I agree with “science” always, but more and more, there’s the view presented by physics that “reality” is not static. Much about reality is determined by the viewer or the person putting their stamp on that reality. I firmly believe that.

      This thread has been enlightening to me. Since so many of you keep declaring that the AA girl/woman’s reality is virtually carved in stone and quite dreary, which I will never accept, it makes me know that I’ve got to go into high-gear to insure that my granddaughter(s) do not share this typical view. If my grandmother had accepted that view of my life, OMG!

      I think this thread should be ‘required reading’ for all women who may ever possibly have a “black” female child.

  59. When this line in the sand was about the “biracial” issue, Neecy and I were the only ones who raised an issue with it. Now that it’s about Black Americans who are the descendants of Black American slaves who were enslaved in America, a lot of people have a problem.

    I can’t help but point out that what it LOOKS like is people were like “yeah okay biracials are a no-go” because most of the commenters here are not biracial. But NOW that the line in the sand includes “them and theirs”, it’s a BIG problem.

    And it’s starting to look a WHOLE LOT LIKE every other circumstance when a group is drawing a line in the sand, to focus on their specific issues, which excludes a lot of folks. Like BW focusing on women issues, blacks focusing on black issues and not white issues. Women focusing on non-trans issues. And so on. I’m talking by the playbook kind of tactics.

    I’m just saying.

  60. I also want to comment on the ethnic pride issue. Since I’ve been reading BWE blogs (>5 years) I have made a lot of effort to develop ethnic pride and self-esteem as an AABW. It’s hard and definitely worth it. But the real deal is it will be an uphill battle all the way. Just about every other race/group of people in America benefit when AA are viewed and accepted as the bottom of the socio-economic status in this country. That’s why it’s important to seek out the relatively few people who will be genuine allies.

    When I say EVERBODY I mean it. Women particularly WW are threatened by competition in the dating/marriage market. BM see their golden geese leaving by the droves. Racist WM see WW ‘passed over’ and resources leaving the white community. The list goes on……

    While there will always be individuals who will support individual BW, there are organized groups that are happy with the status quo. I know personally I have received a lot of pushback, from mostly WW and family. Even though I have divested from the majority of the Black Construct, I still receive pushback from my immediate family. In particular my mother who has stated the old tired line of WM will not marry BW like a mantra.

    So my point is, if you’re self esteem is not ‘all there’ don’t feel bad. Other groups have society and their community shoring up their self-esteem. We all know how it is in the BC. It’s easy to have ‘ethnic pride’ when your entire group is reinforcing that. The BC deliberately cooperates with the dominant american society in destroying virtually all positive ethnic reinforcement for BW/BGs.

    I know some people like Evia are blessed with a family/cultural base that instilled ethnic pride from a very young age. But the vast majority of AABW today do not. And like Khadija has said, the past ‘refuges’ AABW used such as the church ain’t there anymore in any significant way. So realize this worthy battle of ‘ethnic pride’ will be difficult. Make your own safe haven. But don’t get caught up in thinking there is something ‘wrong’ with you for the ethnic lack. It’s amazing AABW/BGs have survived the onslaught at all!

    • And sometimes the hits don’t stop coming even if you are married to a WM. I have to keep my contact with my own family lower than I’d like (I would like my children to know more of that side of their racial and ethnic inheritance) because I can only listen to so much snark and not-very-veiled insults when I’m just trying to have a simple conversation about casual topics and the children. It’s a different kind of landmine though, because there are benefits to marrying well when the guy is white in America and, well, sometimes black family members can be the most jealous haters out there instead of being happy for you and wishing you well.

        • Khadijah

          I can’t thank you enough for linking to the Arch Druid blog. So much useful information. Much of what you get from the “doom sphere” is alarmist ranting. I suspect the Arch Druid’s line of thinking is the correct prophecy for things to come.

        • I can’t remember if I mentioned this before but ladies get yourself a crank radio and add it to your bug out bag. You can buy one small enough to fit in your palm for less than twenty bucks on Amazon.

        • Chic noir,

          You’re most welcome!

          Funny you should mention a travel money belt in your comment below. As I mentioned in another conversation, I’ve made that type a belt part of my regular wardrobe whenever I’m wearing jeans. 🙂

          As an aside, ladies—it’s good to prepare in advance for how you’d be able to HIDE and transport key valuables (like money, ID, and a few critical cards like HMO insurance card, etc.) if you had to run out of your home in a hurry in a Katrina-type evacuation (or any other crisis situation).

          This is an example of a travel money belt.

          The ScotteVest isn’t really covert, but they are good for comfortably carrying important things, like your cell phone. I have one and it’s served me well during vacations.

          Just some food for thought.

  61. Ladies hold tight, prepare and make sure your network is tight. We are in a race to the bottom. Have a plan A,B,C and D cause nothing is guaranteed.

    *readjusts passport and money inside of travel belt while scattering seeds in backyard victory garden*

  62. The other aspect that has to be mentioned again – in terms of being able to express the slights and the need for boundaries and how this will best be executed – is that there are resources at stake. Aside from our representation at large. When we’re still providing the bulk of the resources that everyone else benefits from part of the self-actualization comes from making more definitive choices. Certainly other groups DO have their own resources and protections better situated than the entirety of the black women collective, but people still DO want African American resources. And they want to be able to take them at will. In terms of instilling pride, femininity, etc we also have to utilize those resources better. Recognizing our power also means being able to take responsibility for making our resources work for us. One of the reasons why I’ve discussed Allies & Opportunists and Evaluating Men for Alliances and Marriage as ongoing series at the blog was to ensure that once those initial steps in shoring up our identities took place the next steps are solution and strategy-oriented in not only setting necessary boundaries but seeking out like-minded/respectful allies. While SOME people will oppose AA women armed with boundaries, others will not. A lot of folks may play dumb about the nuances of these matters, but usually they know and they know what they can get away with. People who want to be friendly will be, so we should also keep in mind our growth and awareness doesn’t always and automatically mean a be-all-end-all. scenario.


      As I said in another post, some people want to “use” your resources, SIMPLY because you HAVE them. THEY DON’T EVEN NEED THEM. AAW/G have been socialized to devalue what they offer and to view themselves as lacking any “worth”. This is so others can come in and FILCH what belongs to us, without giving us our *JUST* compensation. This socialization needs to be stopped.

      Even Jesus Christ taught his disciples:

      “Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.” (Matthew 7:6)

      This biblical lesson is rarely taught to AAW/G in any meaningful way. If it were taught PROPERLY, AAW/G would cut off the many leeches, thieves, and robbers in their “families”, “communities”, and “world”.

      Furthermore, Jesus Christ/the Bible teaches the importance of BEING PREPARED. The parable of the 10 virgins is a good example:

      The Parable of the Ten Virgins

      25 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

      6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

      7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

      9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

      10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

      11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

      12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

      13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.


      I don’t know where people got the notion that Christianity is a “pacifist”, “sucker-for-sale” religion. But, Jesus Christ was a REVOLUTIONARY. He just didn’t rely on physical weapons and political exploitation to achieve his goals.

      Anyway…MY point is that WISDOM/SUCCESS involves hard work, preparation, PRUDENT development and allocation of one’s resources, PERSONAL responsibility and accountability, and BOUNDARIES. AAW/G are not taught these things because people want to keep them as a “free/buffer” resource in their back pockets. GOD DOES NOT APPROVE. AAW/G can go out, develop themselves, defend their character, protect their resources, and set boundaries against those who would attack/exploit them, knowing that they are not being “immoral”, “selfish”, or “ungodly”.

      • OMG! You guys this reminds me of things my mom tells me about the AA women she works with and her countless experiences with them. Everything you guys are saying is true, I felt the need to tell you this real life anecdote. I hope you guys don’t feel like me as an outsider barging in but I really, really, really need to tell you guys this.. okay so here it goes..

        My mom works with AA women who are single mothers (as most bw are) anyway, a couple of the AA women on my mom’s job (who she has been working with for almost 20 years) are ALWAYS talking about struggling financially and having money problems. One of them specifically have told my mom right out that sometimes that she goes without electricity, television, credit card declined (she always make sure to pay her rent though!). She told my mom that she has no problem cursing at the credit card collectors and saying that they have to be paid ON HER TIME. When it was my brother’s birthday this particular woman (lets call her S) took out 100$ and tried to give it to my mom. My mom said no and refused the money knowing that she struggled financially. S kept pushing my mom to take my mom. After she failed in succeeding in getting my mom to take it she got AN ATTITUDE and was upset with my mom for the next several weeks. Similar incidents have happened to my mom on the job before with her and other AA women. Oh and by the way S has recently found a way to come up with the money to get her a butt job. SMH.

        Another AA woman told my mom she has only 13$ in her bank account and sees nothing with that because you can’t take the money to the grave. The thing with this is anytime there is a baby shower, fundraiser, a co-worker selling candy for the children’s school candy sale, etc. AA women are the FIRST to take out money AND want to give the MOST money! My mom has told them not to do that but they see nothing wrong with that.

        My best friend specifically is AA, her family also struggled financially and do not budget themselves. However, when we go out to get our nails done or go out to eat she wants to give the biggest tips. It makes no sense to me! She calls me cheap and said it because I’m west indian and makes fun of west indians being cheap. We have actually gotten into arguments over her wanting to always help people. One time when we were walking we saw a stray cat. You won’t believe what she did!, she had us turn around to go into the convenience store to buy cat food. MIND YOU, she was just complaining about 5 minutes ago. I have so many stories of my best friend wanting to give money away for free and spending on frivolous items.

        Also, i felt the need to mention I AND MY MOM have known many AA’s throughout living in this country who like to make fun of west indians being cheap and saving every little penny.

        You said ‘AAW/G are not taught these things because people want to keep them as a “free/buffer” resource in their back pockets.’

        In my experiences AA women WANT to be “free/buffer” resources. No one has to ask AA women for help, AA women give help away for free once they hear a problem arises. The majority of AA women i’ve met go by the motto “the more you give the more you receive”. My mom have warned me this is a very dangerous thing to go by instead –” the more you give THE LESS YOU HAVE!”

        • “The majority of AA women i’ve met go by the motto “the more you give the more you receive”.”

          A LARGE number of AA women are socialized to think this way. They think it’s their responsibility to help any/every one “struggling” with something. Many think this is “godly”.

          That’s why I shared SCRIPTURE in which Jesus explains the following:

          – It’s okay to say, “NO.”

          – It’s okay to keep your hard-earned resources TO YOURSELF, rather than feeling the need to share with the irresponsible.

          – It’s okay NOT to share yourself with people who will not appreciate you/treat you right. As a matter of fact, Jesus says “DON’T”.

          – Jesus CLEARLY had no problem “closin’ the door” on FOOLS.

          I have gone FOR YEARS, wearing the same clothing, shoes, etc., so that I would be able to finance my education and pursue other goals. I, too, know what it’s like when AAs/others look down on you for not wearing Fendi, carrying Coach bags, getting your nails done, etc. However, I now have a certain degree of security and options they DON’T have, because of my choices. It’s a POOR socialization system. But, I was fortunate enough to have a different set of examples in my life. THANK GOD.

        • Girl I can’t tell my bff NOTHING! It’s pretty much ingrained into the psych of AA women/Black women! And same here, my best friend told me thats nasty and she could never do that. Oh well more $ in my pocket! LOL

        • I’d say these women want to give to people and in situations that make them feel good about themselves or superior. They won’t give that level of support to other black women trying to elevate themselves, towards things that create wealth or to learn new skills for example. Those examples you provided seem extreme, but they’re “rescue the downtrodden/do something nice to look good in front of other people I want to impress” type scenarios.

      • Actsoffaith,
        They may seem extreme to you but this is MY REAL LIFE EXPERIENCES I’ve had with AA women. One person’s craziness is another person’s reality. Btw it’s NOT ONLY AA black women, many Caribbean black women are this way. Please don’t think I’m lying. My mom can tell you TONS of stories with black Caribbean women doing the same thing AA women do. Black women are just too damn giving. It’s one of the primary reason why we COLLECTIVELY stay losing.

    • GOD!

      That post is SO. ON. POINT.

      I’ve been noticing and vexed in my spirit by the SAME THINGS. Just yesterday, or the day before, I saw an article about a politician apologizing for saying, “White lives matter.” The article had a photo of a dark-skinned, natural-haired AA woman standing on a stage w/a sign or tee shirt saying, “Black lives matter.” WHERE are the black MEN, in all of this? (Rhetorical question. We already know the answer.) WHY are AA women always putting themselves on the frontlines and wearing that position like “a badge of honor”?

      I’ve had so many thoughts, I’m just going to briefly “free flow”, then probably come back later with more structured, focused commentary.

      – First thing I thought, when I watched that lady’s arrest was, “Shut. your. mouth.” This is not a rap video. Can’t people see those punks talk sh*t in front of cameras and can’t back up anything IN PERSON? That’s why they’re always shooting somebody. They can’t fight and are TOO WEAK to take a punch. Why are YOU, as a woman, “running offf at the mouth”, talking tough WITH MEN? And, men of “THE LAW”, at THAT? You’re putting yourself in a bad place.

      – AA males RARELY fulfill the TRUE role of men. They won’t even properly raise their own sons. We’re too many generations
      DEEP, now. The problems just keep circulating and compouning.

      – In the AA church, I get tired of seeing women carrying the “lionshare” of responsibiity and workload. The women pay the money, do the foot/grunt work, while the men hold leadership positions and always get “a pass” out of doing the undesirable, taxing labor. That’s why I can’t get into the “church mentality” even though I’m Christian. In the white church, however, men, whole marriages, and families ABOUND. And, the men do most of the work and handle most of the responsibilities. This is a dramatic difference in the socialization of WM and BM. WM, in general, will do things like hold doors, carry items, do “less desirable” tasks for a woman, without being asked. BM usually only like to do those things for *certain* women, if at all.

      – The time for “coddling losers” IS OVER. I was just telling my mom this, about one of our family members, today. I think she has finally gotten to the point where she can see/accept the need to stop enabling certain people. IT’S RIDICULOUS, how in the AA pop, if 1 person works, 15 people want to “sit down”.

      • I want to leave this comment here because Bruekelen Bleu’s posts often get hidden from her Facebook timeline. This is not my comment:

        Emi Doe

        These women suffer from something I call “so much depends” thinking. It is false logic that your life’s troubles will be fixed when you rectify one thing that you think is The Primary Cause of your problems. That is, so much depends (happiness, health, wholeness, self-acceptance, physical safety) on changing this one thing—acquiring more money, reaching a goal weight, moving into a new area, “saving” a group of men who hate you…. Of course, that’s not true. You could have that thing and it could all still be bad because one thing may not make your life good instantly or at all.

        In some way, it makes some sense that the BW who are always slaving for black men’s benefit are the ones who are likely the most negatively impacted by black men—publically called ugly or manly, physically or sexually assaulted, sexually used and discarded/seen as unfit to marry, denigrated on social media. They think that all of that will be resolved when black men are no longer “oppressed by white supremacy.” In their minds, so much depends on the salvation of BM: once that occurs they will no longer be seen as ugly, value-less, unworthy, or however else the vast majority of BM perceive them. They do it because they NEED this to end the most so that they cease being The Targets. Sadly, they don’t realize that in the absence of white supremacy black men would still hate them and even do WORSE to them, as they have done whenever white male influence is not present. Not knowing how to just let these pieces of sh*t go, their only hope is to keep trying to change the circumstances that create these monsters.

        • I agree with you. I constantly hear BW making excuses for BM neglect by saying it’s the result of oppression from the “white man”. SOOOO ridiculous. It’s obvious that even when the BM HAS the means to protect and provide for his people, he CHOOSES *NOT* to do so.

          Why aren’t people protesting West, Simmons, Diddy, Woods, Barkley, Jordan, Bryant, Johnson, Birdman, Master P, Dre, and so on and so forth for not investing in areas like Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, etc? Why don’t they protest the NFL and NBA players who, even if they each contributed a few (or even one or two) million could start a significant economic development project to provide jobs for “their people/community”. They don’t mind “makin’ it rain” on strippers and prostitutes, “poppin” bottles, paying out HUUUGE divorce/child support settlements.

          I’m at the point that I’m HIGHLY in favor of “selective breeding”. I’m also fine with completely cutting off people who offer nothing of value, regardless of heritage or bloodline. Furthermore, the BM has shown that he wants to make EVERYONE ELSE accountable for *HIS* responsibilities. So, it’s JUST PLAIN DUMB to look for him to provide much beyond a temporary thrill or entertainment (if you can even get that).

          I wish these women would recognize their worth and stop laying themselves as “lambs for the slaughter”. It drags US ALL down.

          Jesus ALREADY DIED for the sins of the world. WE DON’T HAVE TO.

        • –I wish these women would recognize their worth and stop laying themselves as “lambs for the slaughter”. It drags US ALL down.–

          I am a FIRM believer that people do what works FOR them and when it stops working for them, they stop doing it. I truly believe that is unequivocal. Even when what they are doing is working AGAINST them, or harming them, in some twisted way, it IS working FOR them. It is providing them with one or more needs fulfilled on Maslow’s hierarchy. And as long as these women get SOMETHING out of laying down for the slaughter, they will continue.

          And I DO believe they get something out of self-sacrifice. Maybe it’s esteem because they get noticed by other BW, maybe it’s belonging (again provided by other BW), a (false) sense of safety…

          It is a survival mechanism and I’ve known (in the past) of some BW to engage in this (needs met in groups of other women) and “proclaiming” to use men ONLY for sex (which… I’m not buying it but whatever). However, in THIS group, someone on Bleu’s Facebook pointed out that it’s always the ones most commonly branded as “undesirable” (by BM) on the front lines, so they probably aren’t able to use that strategy (i.e. having the upper hand in at least getting their sexual needs met) and are just working with getting those other needs met among groups of women.

          IOW, the men won’t give it to us so maybe we give it to each other.

          I am saying this to point out that it’s not as simple as recognizing their worth, there are layers of baggage to unpack when you’re knee deep in that mentality and it takes dedicated work to clear your head. Most won’t do the work… EVER. All that can be done is those who seek to change their circumstances seek the information, which is why I was so grateful to find blogs like these when I needed them.

          I started reading psuedo-psych-self-help books when I was much younger, books on power of persuasion etc. and one of the things they teach is the hardest thing to change is a person’s belief system. It’s one of the reasons I get frustrated when I see dysfunction become easily dismissed as a “lack of self-esteem” because it’s so much deeper than that and often has little to do with self-esteem. It’s a deeply flawed belief system, and people have to unpack and challenge that themselves. Challenging and changing ones beliefs is NOT EASY. And at times can make you FEEL like you’re losing it and can PRESENT to others (who love to play I got my medical degree from watching tv) as “mental illness” which we (black women) often get branded with. I believe a LOT of that is the process one goes through when you are changing your belief system, trying to figure out what your NEW reality and NEW consciousness looks like.

          That’s hard work.

          And because there’s no framework of support for BW going through that, people like to call ’em crazy.

          That’s why I’m always so AMAZED when I read things like Khadija transitioning from one mindset (Pan African, NOI) to another, because that’s HARD work. Most people won’t challenge what they know, what they believe, what they hold on to. That is a struggle that will often have you questioning your own sanity at times.

          Anyhow, that was long winded but I wanted to touch on it because it goes so much deeper than just self-worth or realizing that the support is not reciprocated because (according to “the books” wish I could remember which titles) people jump from one belief system to ANOTHER. They don’t just give up a belief system for NOTHING. Whether they adapt or construct a belief system, they DO go to something else.

        • “I am saying this to point out that it’s not as simple as recognizing their worth, there are layers of baggage to unpack when you’re knee deep in that mentality and it takes dedicated work to clear your head. Most won’t do the work… EVER. All that can be done is those who seek to change their circumstances seek the information, which is why I was so grateful to find blogs like these when I needed them.”

          THIS IS TRUE.

          I’ve already been through a variety of stages/changes for different reasons. Honestly, I cannot relate to these women, because I don’t share their world view, and these things “just don’t make sense”, to me. I can’t personally imagine what they get out of this. But, I don’t have children with these men. I don’t have any sons. My dating style has me interacting with these males MINIMALLY, and I had to deviate from my normal path to even have that. As far as having needs met by other women, I believe there are limitations, unless a woman prefers women to men.

          Honestly, this is something I can’t understand. The only other thing that I can think is that they believe it is their role/responsibility, as the AA population has always allowed women to be on the forefront of struggle, to soften the blows BM face. I can’t understand why they don’t see the hypocrisy in the reactions to abuse of BM versus abuse of BW. THAT ALONE would make me want to “take a seat”. Then, there are those who like to think of themselves as social justice advocates.

          Concerning mental health issues, I wish more AAs would take mental illness seriously. (I’m not talking about you.). I met women who have been diagnosed as adults with intense illnesses like bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. It makes it very difficult for them to function effectively, without medication. And, since “taking meds” is so stigmatized by AAs/religious people, many don’t, and suffer more than they need to. I often feel a lot of these dysfunctional behaviors we see are actually the results of mental illness and possible exposure to drugs/alcohol during pregnancy. I don’t KNOW this. But, some behaviors/responses/thinking patterns seem so “OUT OF BALANCE” to me. Then again, we each have our own concept of “BALANCE”.

          But, you are correct. These issues aren’t simply a matter of “weight loss, new lipstick, and a makeover”. There are some deep (and frequently, intractable) issues going on in these women’s lives. I don’t know what they need to “get it”, but I hope they find it.

          Unfortunately, sometimes life doesn’t give us the time to figure out/unravel everything clearly before making a life or death choice. Sometimes, you just have to see the options before you and figure out what they ultimately lead to in terms of results. One thing I’ve learned in life is that you have to learn how to function/move forward without necessarily having all the answers in place. Otherwise, you’ll remain stuck and stagnant. Wisdom is beneficial for making good choices in conditions of both “certainty” and “uncertainty”. That’s why it’s so important to seek out and develop. As I said, I don’t know what these women NEED, but “THE WRITING IS ON THE WALL”.

        • That “All AA Problems Stem From Slavery/All Black World Problems Stem From Colonialism” narrative is getting very tired and frayed around the edges. At this point, I’m convinced that the Black world’s problems started WAY before the Arab and European invasions. BM have been betraying and exploiting BW from the very beginning. BM have been throwing BW under the bus from the very beginning. Long before White folks stepped foot into sub-Saharan Africa.

          Even some Pan-African/Black Nationalist BM have started realizing this and describing the previously admired [Black] Moors as among the original “sell-outs.” Check out the commentary in this video starting at 4:34 into the video.

          Here’s another comment from one of Breukelen Bleu’s recent threads that ties into the one you quoted above by a commenter named Fatou Diarra:

          Fatou Diarra Breukelen Bleu….say that shit please. I also was caught up in the Afrocentric nonsense. The thing is my dad is a continental African and grew up quite acquainted with that side of my heritage. The muling of African women is vast across subsaharan Africa, and marriage in Africa is only to the benefit of African men. African men are the original pimps…and there is a reason our men in the diaspora are attracted to pimping literally, pimping ass preachers, pimping ass activists…it’s in their DNA.. African men are the architects of patriarchy but unlike the European and Arab, PIMPED THE SHIT OUT OF AFRICAN WOMEN AND DIDN’T MOVE OFF THEIR ASSES..SO, THEY WERE POORLY EQUIPPED FOR PATRIARCHAL MEN WHO ACTUALLY MOVED OFF THEIR ASSES AND DID THE WORK..AS OPPOSED TO PROCLAIMING MALE SUPREMACY BUT LETTING AFRICAN WOMEN MULE THE WORK. DON’T WE SEE THIS SHIT IN THE BLACK CHURCH…PIMP ASS PASTORS WITH BLACK WOMEN RUNNING THE CHURCH, PIMP ASS AFRICAN MEN WHO ARE POLYGAMISTS-BROKE WITH NOT FKING SHOE AND MULTIPLE WIVES FIGHTING OVER THEIR ASSES BUT MUST EACH SUSTAIN THEMSELVES. THE CULTURE IS PIMP CULTURE GOING WAY BACK. GO TO THE AVERAGE AFRICAN VILLAGE…THE WOMEN ARE CARRYING SHIT LOADS OF STUFF AS HIGH AS A SKYSCRAPER ON THEIR HEADS WHILE THE MEN ARE ONLY CARRYING A FKING MACHETE. Now, contrast polygamy in the Arab world…only the very wealthy Arab man can marry more than one wife, and none of his wives work. Arab women are certainly dominated but only work inside their homes while their husbands bust ass. Subsaharan Africans from east to west, are traditionally known for throwing widows out of their homes, with the family seizing her deceased husband’s goods, leaving her to poverty; this crap happens all over black Africa. Has anyone asked why the Arab automatically calls African men Abeed(slave)? Has anyone asked how the Arab conquered Africans, since they didn’t have ammunition like the European…just camels and swords? The answer is because the Arab man lost respect for the self hatred and gullibility of the African man and his WILLINGNESS TO SELL HIS WOMEN AND CHILDREN INTO THE ARAB SLAVE TRADE…WHICH COULD NOT OCCUR WITHOUT THE AFRICAN MAN’S ACTIVE PARTICIPATION. SO, THE ARABS BENEFITTED BUT LOST RESPECT FOR THE AFRICAN MAN, AS THE ARAB KNEW HE WOULD NEVER EVER SELL HIS OWN SEED. EVEN ARABS TAKE CARE OF THEIR CHILDREN BY AFRICAN SLAVE WOMEN/CONCUBINES, THUS WHY THEY EXPANDED HEAVILY INTO AFRICA. The selling of women by men into slavery isn’t exclusive to African men…BUT NO OTHER MEN ON THIS PLANET DID IT ON SUCH A MASSIVE LEVEL.
          11 · 3 hrs · Edited

    • I also want to add that Karmic Overdraft Fees also apply to relationships (personal and/or romantic). I am continually dismayed when BW enter into relationships with men KNOWING they have a large “karmic bill” due and then get surprised when they suffer misery by association. Standing on the front lines for someone isn’t JUST about protest and political/social activism, it also applies in personal lives.

      • YES. I just learned one of my irresponsible male cousin’s sons is headed down the same pathway. I like the kid’s mom, but she was FOOLISH to get involved with my cousin. Now her child is headed down the same road.

        I “wash my hands” of this and have decided to keep a safe distance from ALL of them. When people don’t have the sense to stay away from others who are negative influences, they’ll keep that mess in your life TOO, if you allow them to hang around.

  63. RE: Khadija’s latest post.

    I was horrified to see the images of black women on crosses and other forms of sacrifice.
    Even if one doesn’t buy into the spiritual aspect of this, for a group (bw) who points out how their images in mass media are negative, to then have any significant numbers of the so-called “conscious” among them to produce such images is unconscionable. It is nonsensical. It is hypocritical.

    Images DO matter. They DO have an affect. Advertisers don’t spend millions of dollars on campaigns, agonizing over every little detail from the models’ hair to the lighting, just to be spending money.

    • This is exactly what my own mother has said to me. There are many times I look around and question why so many young bw my age act the way the act and their dysfunctional decision making. But, then I remember If you’re not exposed to something, its going to be a foreign concept to you. And another thing thats not being talked about is many of the black women that are making these ‘sacrifices’ are EXTREMELY YOUNG.

  64. Gina,

    You said:

    —“I am saying this to point out that it’s not as simple as recognizing their worth, there are layers of baggage to unpack when you’re knee deep in that mentality and it takes dedicated work to clear your head. Most won’t do the work… EVER. All that can be done is those who seek to change their circumstances seek the information, which is why I was so grateful to find blogs like these when I needed them.

    I started reading psuedo-psych-self-help books when I was much younger, books on power of persuasion etc. and one of the things they teach is the hardest thing to change is a person’s belief system. It’s one of the reasons I get frustrated when I see dysfunction become easily dismissed as a “lack of self-esteem” because it’s so much deeper than that and often has little to do with self-esteem. It’s a deeply flawed belief system, and people have to unpack and challenge that themselves. Challenging and changing ones beliefs is NOT EASY. And at times can make you FEEL like you’re losing it and can PRESENT to others (who love to play I got my medical degree from watching tv) as “mental illness” which we (black women) often get branded with.

    . . . That’s why I’m always so AMAZED when I read things like Khadija transitioning from one mindset (Pan African, NOI) to another, because that’s HARD work. Most people won’t challenge what they know, what they believe, what they hold on to. That is a struggle that will often have you questioning your own sanity at times.”—

    I agree that faulty, non-nourishing belief systems are at the root of the problems (actually interlocking set of crises) discussed in BW-centric spaces. Or, as I call them, “narratives.” The type of narratives/stories we tell ourselves to explain how the world works determines our quality of life. This applies on both the collective and individual level. I agree with my Dad that very few things in life are truly neutral. Most things are either moving you forward or holding you back/down.

    This is why I believe that the work that the blog host of The Archdruid Report is doing to get other narratives out into the public is just as important as the information he disseminates about personal sustainability strategies and techniques. Here’s one of several of his blog posts that discuss this particular point.

    Unfortunately, there’s a HUGE, gaping mismatch between reality and the various narratives that are popular and entrenched among AABW. Learning about the Dunbar Village Atrocity and the mostly inappropriate (really, demonic) reactions of various parties (the victims’ other BW neighbors, the local NAACP chapter, Rev. Hot Comb and others [ ] caused me to see the huge, gaping mismatch between my prior Black Nationalist/NOI-influenced narratives and the harsh realities AABW and girls face.

    NO, it was *not* easy to rethink the narratives that had previously sustained me through dealing with envious AA Black haters in high school and beyond (among AAs it’s cool to hate on middle-class AAs); and dealing with mostly racist and hostile majority White college and law school experiences. Let’s just say the opportunities for AABW for finding friendship, dating and marriage in “mainstream” White America was VERY different in the 1980s and 1990s. And not in a good way. I talked about that at length in this post.

    No, it’s not easy to reconsider life stories/narratives, but you have to try to be as intellectually honest as possible when presented with new information. Doubling down on a narrative that you’ve started to question (or is no longer meeting your needs) is a recipe for disaster. I’ve always believed that anything that is truly worthwhile can withstand scrutiny.

  65. I dropped in to say thank you to OLS for having us all in your space.

    Gina: I appreciate your commentary and am getting a lot out of reading it. I also saw your notes about wanting to hear my views on this transgender business. Thank you for wanting to hear my thoughts on ANYTHING, it means a lot to me. If OLS does a post on that, I’ll be there. This current convo has taken a very different, but amazing arc and I believe we should stay on it.

    Khadija as always you know I love you like cooked food.

    Everyone else, good awesome comments as well. I am reading, but as you guys are hitting it out the park, I don’t have anything drastically different to offer other than this.

    Did someone mention how Ms. Bland’s family could not come up with the bail money? She was in custody for three days, no one could find $500 in all that time? She had to call a bondsman.

    I think that’s the most tragic of all of this, she might have been out of harms way sooner if the $ to get her out had been available.

    • Yes, that is the most tragic of all with Ms. Bland because at the end of the day, if they had WANTED to help her, they would have come up with the money (pawn shop, loan, credit card, emergency cash, asking friends/relatives, etc.).

      Their actions showed more than their words ever will that HER LIFE WAS NOT WORTH $500 to them.

      To the silent reading audience,

      If you know in your heart that there are people in your circle that “do not have your back” when it counts, they you need to cut them off as the life you save may be your OWN.

      • Soul Alive,

        Thank you for your kind words; I truly appreciate it! 🙂


        I 100% co-sign your observation about the bail/bond situation regarding Ms. Bland. From what I’ve seen, her relatives don’t seem to be public aid folks.* Pawn shop, put it on a credit card, pass the hat among relatives and church members (who have no problem listening to support appeals on behalf of Sister So& So’s son Pookie who’s face 25 years to life).

        It appears that getting her bond money simply wasn’t an emergency-level priority for those folks in her bio family. And now they stand to financially benefit from her death in police custody. {smh in disgust at all of it}

        [*And I’ll note that even a group of public aid folks could get $500 together in a hurry if they truly wanted to do so—public aid folks always have or can find the money for things they truly want like reefer and other drugs, and expensive gym shoes, etc.]

    • I posted this at Necey’s site:

      Yes. This is sad. I wonder if they would have come up with the money for some “bum *ss negro”.

      I’m not surprised, however. I once had a lady from another state show up at my doorstep unannounced. She wanted to relocate to start her life over. Problem was, she didn’t have any money. I put her in a motel for about a week and tried to help her find work. When she couldn’t find any, we had her contact her family about her circumstance. Her sister said she was going to wire some money to her, so that she could get back home. Don’t you know, THAT MONEY NEVER CAME. Her sister never even called back to say she couldn’t/didn’t send the money. At the end of the day, I and my mother gave her funds (and some EXTRA funds) to get back home.


  66. Khadija

    Bland’s death and what you wrote are so true and many do not get it.They think they’re being bold by announcing these things like she did and doing activist work for those who are not for you. Black women have been spun for so long I think we just need to sit and wait a minute to get our equilibrium back.

    No black woman should be out there protesting especially if, you can’t post your own bail and we can see that others are either unable to or just won’t. We should all be careful of what we put out for others to see in that these things can be used against us. Doing things covertly and learning how to work the system without having to be in the streets is so important.

    I was asked by some young ladies I know if, I was going to any of those protest and I told them no because unlike the white protesters I don’t have a team of lawyers, bail money, and contacts all along the chain and politician I can call on and that will just to my aid. I introduced them to three groups of white activist that do street protest that have it like that.

    These young ladies got it and got themselves and friend off the street and are networking to build their own machine for change. I also pointed out that a lot of people profit from this ladies death. The marches if any will fill the hotels money for the city and not in black hands, posters, shirts, and such not usually black owned, food, transportation, and so on and oh yes the police get overtime.

    Why is there no black network why is the money allowed to leave on a black person’s death and we wonder why they keep killing us. I remember when organic food was not sold at Safeway now it is everywhere because people who wanted it spent elsewhere. Now Safeway has organic. Dollars speak for you in America. We need to learn that language and stratagem. Thank for pointing this stuff out. I so appreciate it.

    • firefly99,

      You’re welcome, and thank you for your kind words—I truly appreciate it!

      As you point out in detail in your comment, the bottom line is that other people have safety nets that their various “tribes” have created for themselves. AAs DON’T have any safety nets; and we refuse to create any for ourselves. It’s a new day in post-9/11, militarized police America. AABW better get rid of that misplaced nostalgia for the 1960s civil rights movement—that only worked because of the Cold War—see this post:

      I’ll note for the record that it’s possible to do all the “right” and savvy things and still end up maimed or dead. Nevertheless, another thing that occurs to me about this Sandra Bland atrocity is that too many AAs don’t understand that there are “operating costs” in grown-up real life. Too many AAs try to have and use things by the “hairs of their chinny-chin-chins.” Meaning, they buy stuff like cars when they really don’t have the financial stability to pay for all the responsible-adult operating costs associated with car ownership (such as reliable insurance, savings for routine maintenance and repair costs, etc.). I’m NOT saying that this was necessarily the case in terms of Ms. Bland.

      However, I took another look at my Allstate Motor Club membership card to confirm that it has the feature that I remembered: the motor club card may be used in lieu of cash bail up to a certain dollar amount (seems to be $1,000) for minor traffic offenses. The back of the card warns that arrest bond cards are not accepted in all states and may be accepted in an amount less than the limit stated on the front of the card.

      I don’t expect to ever have a need for such a feature, but it’s a nice thing to have. I just looked up the rules for the Circuit Court of Cook County (Chicago-area court system), and they do accept these bond cards (from approved companies) as bail for certain traffic offenses.

      Just some more food for thought.

    • Moriah,

      thanks for the info. It’ll probably take me quite some time to check out the video you’ve linked to.

      I’m busy with writing my current novel these days. And right now I’m only taking time out to watch or listen to things if they in some way help with my writing (as creativity inspiration, examples of various storytelling techniques, etc.).

  67. My father said something that was really an eye opener for me. He said coming up with $500.00
    is not easy. So right there let me know that I would not have the support of my father is God forbid I was ever in a situation. Keep in mind he has spent in excess of $500.00 on lottery and another $100.00 on scratch offs but coming up with $500.00 is not easy. It refers back to Khadija post on Karmic Debt.
    Lord knows Ms. Bland has paid a heavy price for a group of people who couldn’t give her a quarter.

    • Shaylah,

      You said: —” Keep in mind he has spent in excess of $500.00 on lottery and another $100.00 on scratch offs but coming up with $500.00 is not easy.”—

      Translation = Coming up with $500.00 for anything other than what he WANTS to spend money on is hard. Unfortunately, it’s an established pattern among too many Black folks that they buy what they want and then beg for what they need.

    • Just as several of us suspected, it looks like Sandra Bland was left to rot in that jail by the various folks in her life (family and a 57-year old male “friend”—sperm donor for the previous miscarriage? I don’t know–he claims to have “missed” 2 phone calls and voice mail from her while she was in jail).

      I would suggest that people read Breukelen Bleu’s post about this while she leaves it visible to the public.

      • Kahdija
        What books would you reccomend to read up on the history of the moors and what really happened to contribute to our current situation. Knowledge is power and helps one see things clearly, face the problem attack it and let go of destructive indoctrinatioin.

        Love your most recent post very sound advice for the younger black girls and women. Unfortunately, there are those that are late to the game, but now have it together. What would be your advice for them?

        My thinking is first step out of any situation is to acknowledge it, examine it, gather knowledge and sound advice about it. Then devis a plan and some back up plans to deal with it. Often when young we don’t vet the advice of our elders. A lot of black women got the bad advice to concentrate on education to the exclusion of find a life partner and to wait after school. Some were given even worse advice to have their children young and unmarried like you mentioned in your post.

        Bottom line I’ve noticed a lot of black women get garbage advice from authority figures in their life so when they figure out the deal they are often behind or have to hustle. I often tell the women around me who have such situations to look at others lives that took that path and to go where you are celebrated. Stop waiting on men who are not even looking for you. We Black women must multitask as our situation is dire. We must learn to play up our distinct attributes. What say you?

  68. Hey have you seen the Shawn King thing wonder how long before it blows up. Will black men defend him like Rachael Fidel?

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